Author Topic: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection  (Read 1697 times)

Offline Seth I.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Lead Historian at Rock Island Auction Co.
    • Black Powder Historian on Instagram
Any thoughts on this one? I stumbled on it today and found it rather perplexing. Is it actually a powder horn or is it something else?


Quote

A small and ornately decorated powder horn, about which little is known.

This small horn has a rounded wood plug base, a double-necked spouts carved in wood, and is inset into horn with brass tacks. Black scrimshaw decorations with "GW" in crest above the Arms of England with motto, "HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE" are visible on the front and a gryphon with a dove above it appears on the back. On the left side is a cod fish and musket and on the right side is an Indian brandishing a bow and arrow. The carved double neck has two pouring spouts, joined by a wooden bridge and what appear to be the original stoppers. The right spout has a "P" carved into it on the reverse side.
I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history. *All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Online Stoner creek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2437
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2022, 11:37:44 PM »
ATTENTION TIM CROSBY!!!!!!
Remember what got us here.

Offline mtlonghunter

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2022, 12:31:05 AM »
How big..? Salt and "P"eper.? Divided inside?

Offline Seth I.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Lead Historian at Rock Island Auction Co.
    • Black Powder Historian on Instagram
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2022, 01:44:19 AM »
Quote
Ox horn, black stain, wood, [17--]

15.9 cm x 10.1 cm x 5 cm

Powder Horns 007
https://www.masshist.org/database/3517?ft=Revolutionary-Era%20Art%20and%20Artifacts&from=/features/revolutionary-era/artifacts&noalt=1&pid=38

So about 6 1/2 x 4 x 2 inches. Rather small. I was wondering it wasn't a salt horn with a divided compartment for pepper or something else on one side.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 01:57:27 AM by Seth I. »
I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history. *All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3654
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2022, 06:06:31 AM »
Iíd like to handle that one.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17131
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2022, 02:46:51 PM »
 Reminds me of a two headed turtle  ;D

  "HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE"

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honi_soit_qui_mal_y_pense

 I think you are right about the Salt & Pepper idea, the one spout does have a "P" on it. When the Pic comes up put your cursor over it and scroll to enlarge it you'll see the "P". Don't see an "S" but if you see the "P" you don't need one.

  https://www.masshist.org/database/viewer.php?item_id=3517&mode=large&img_step=2&pid=38&noalt=1#page2

 Neat carving, note the "$#*! Horse""

  Tim C.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 02:55:56 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Seth I.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Lead Historian at Rock Island Auction Co.
    • Black Powder Historian on Instagram
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2022, 01:02:57 AM »
I hadn't noticed the "P" despite it being mentioned in the description. Good catch.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 01:06:47 AM by Seth I. »
I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history. *All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Rajin cajun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Ragin Cajun
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2022, 07:17:02 AM »
Very neat horn..! Quiet unusual and nicely designed and carved.
Thanks ....!

Bob
Itís not the size of the dog in the fight, itís the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline Tecumseh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2022, 07:50:58 PM »
I agree with the earlier assessment that it is potentially a salt n pepper horn. Pic that Tim provided clearly show a P scratched in and the original pic at top of post appears to have an S scratched in the wood stopper.

Offline 83nubnEC

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 35
is it at all possible that the "S" and "P" markings on the spouts could also stand for powder and shot for a pocket flask?

Offline John Proud

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: Unusual Powder Horn in the Massachusetts Historical Society Collection
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2022, 06:30:01 PM »
Just ran on this thread today, so a late post here.

Without examining the horn in hand, I am almost certain that the engraving was done by Richard Cresey (1737?-1809) as it has all of his "key features" in both the British Coat of Arms and the $#*! Horse. (The Honourable Company of Horners, The Monograph Series, Volume 1, The French & Indian and Revolutionary Wars Engraving Of Richard Cresey 'The Hellhorse Powder Horn Engraver'.) 

Interesting piece. If it indeed has a divider, I would concur that it a "salt and pepper horn" or spice horn.

It is on my bucket list to get to Boston to see and handle it in person.

John