Help with Harpers Ferry musket

[CarolinaNoob]

I recently purchased, as my initial foray into flintlocks, a mix-master Model 1816 Harpers Ferry 69 caliber smoothbore musket. 

Lockplate is stamped 1821, but hammer, pan, frizzn and barrel are obviously not original.  The barrel has serious issues, which I will solve separately.   This post is about the Frizzn. 

The lock functions as it should but the frizzn is made of - as best I can tell - stainless steel.   It won't throw a spark, it's only mildly magnetic, it won't rust, and just a few flint strikes have gouged its surface already.   

What are my options?   

If these are new production parts where did the come from?  Is there a source for a correct working replacement part?   Am I mistaken about the stainless thing?   Can it be hardened & carbeurized?  Re-surfaced?   


I'm new to this and not sure which way to turn, but I am still very interested in shooting this gun.   

[Mule Brain]

Track of the wolf has a frizzen for that

Lock-1803-Fr   It will need to be fitted and tempered   

 

[Daryl]

Seems to me, the pan was for 1777 French & somewhat later US guns, but how far into the 1800's I do not know.
I do think the 1842 was the first cap-lock US made musket.

[Clint]

If you have the capability to do the work, the most straight forward approach would be to face the frizzen with steel. The steel comes from old saw blades and can be roughly broken then ground to shape. Once you have the steel close, heat it with a propane torch and cool it very slowly. you can now drill for rivets (made from nails) and bend the steel to fit the frizzen. drill the frizzen for the rivets and snap the two peices together. Trim the steel to fit the frizzen with a grinder and braze the steel to the frizzen. now you need to harden the face and draw the temper to about 300- 350 degrees. You can buy a new frizzen casting from The Rifle Shoppe, but I'm not really sure how to describe your lock, looks like a 1816 musket to me because of the pan.

[erutecki]

Quite a few of these were converted to percussion for use in The Civil War using the "cone in barrel" otherwise known as the Belgium conversion. Yours might just be one of these guns down converted to flint using a kit commonly found on ebay. Parts can be found for 1816's at both S&S Firearms and Lodgewood Mfg. If your barrel has any signs of a "cone in barrel" deconversion, you will want to see Bobby Hoyt for a reline. Best of luck in getting this piece of history back up and shooting again! Shouldn't be that difficult.   

[varsity07840]

The pan, albeit a replacement looks correct. I seriously doubt that an 1803 frizzen would work. I agree that your best bet is to half sole the frizzen you have.  I believe a lot of replacement frizzes are of poor quality. I have two flint 1816s. One of them has a replacement frizzen that after hardening would only spark for about 20 strikes. It was hardened by a pro. He half soled it and now it sparks great. Be aware depending on the thickness, the new added material may alter the geometry of the lock and your flint size will probably get smaller. Otherwise, you're going smash flints. Bob Hoyt is the go to guy for a reline if the barrel is not two far gone. If it's beyond help, he may have another one on hand. Dan Whitacre owner of Whitacre's Machine Shop will make you a new one for around $500.00. Bob gets around $200.00 for a reline.

[Clark Badgett]

Seems to me, the pan was for 1777 French & somewhat later US guns, but how far into the 1800's I do not know.
I do think the 1842 was the first cap-lock US made musket.

The US adopted that brass forward inclined pan with the M1816 musket. You are correct about the M1842

[jbigley]

Talk to David at Lodgewood; 262-473-5444. He specializes in US military muskets/rifles. He has many parts available, and may have the solutions you're looking for. He's also a really nice guy and will steer you straight. Good luck with your project! --JB

[Daryl]

Seems to me, the pan was for 1777 French & somewhat later US guns, but how far into the 1800's I do not know.
I do think the 1842 was the first cap-lock US made musket.

The US adopted that brass forward inclined pan with the M1816 musket. You are correct about the M1842

I thought I read the US used the 1877 French Charleville brass inclined pan on the 1895 musket as well, Clark.

[CarolinaNoob]

Thanks all, great stuff.   I see the exact part I need on Lodgewood Website, but OOS.   I'll give them a call.   

I've already spoken with Bobby Hoyt about a barrel re-line.   He says current price is $250 which includes return shipping.   

[CarolinaNoob]

Ok - struck out at Lodgewood.   David tells me they no longer have a source for these parts.   He referred me to a place in OK:

http://therifleshoppe.com/online_catalog.htm

They have an extensive catalog of pieces and parts for an impressive array of historical arms. 

Fingers crossed!

[varsity07840]

Ok - struck out at Lodgewood.   David tells me they no longer have a source for these parts.   He referred me to a place in OK:

http://therifleshoppe.com/online_catalog.htm

They have an extensive catalog of pieces and parts for an impressive array of historical arms. 

Fingers crossed!

You could wait a long time for parts from the Rifle Shoppe. What parts are you looking for? I suggest you try Ed Knisely 717-741-2556. EdKnisely@alo.com. He may even have some original parts. BTW, what makes you thing the barrel is not original?

[CarolinaNoob]

BTW, what makes you thing the barrel is not original?

Forgive me if I use the wrong terminology here...
The breech plug has a recoil lug at the rear with a half-circle notch filed out of it.  That notch is supposed to rest on the rear lock cross-bolt.   It does not fit correctly.   I think it's probably AN original barrel, but needs to be fit to this action after I get it relined.  It's a real mess.   Durn thing was packed with a re-enactor powder charge when it arrived and it's so badly eroded inside I only *hope* Bobby Hoyt doesn't just send it back with a note.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The breech plug is supposed to have a "recoil lug" that is in fact the part of the plug that makes it possible to thread it into the breech end of the barrel.  And it is supposed to have a notch cut out TO CLEAR THE LOCK'S REARWARD BOLT.  The lug is not supposed to be seated against this bolt.
It is unlikely that the frizzen is stainless steel.  It is most likely just not heat treated correctly.  A good file should slide over the frizzen easily.  It may need case or pack hardening, if it is not tool steel, in which case just hardening and tempering would do the job.

[CarolinaNoob]

So... it seems I have completely boned up this project. 

I ordered some tru-spark from TOTW and followed the directions.  The result was a mess.  The hardening compound left an orange-peel looking patch on about 25% of the frizzen face.  So I ground it off and tried again.  This time, there was a loud report when I quenched the piece and it's cracked badly (see photos).   Bad luck for me... I guess I have nothing to lose by trying to re-face it now.   Hope that goes better...FWIW I think there was a flaw in the casting because it orange-peeled in the exact same spot second time around.   

note:   that face was smooth and mirror-bright before I attempted hardening - there were no craters in the face like you see here.  That patch on the back wasn't there either.   

[Clark Badgett]

Seems to me, the pan was for 1777 French & somewhat later US guns, but how far into the 1800's I do not know.
I do think the 1842 was the first cap-lock US made musket.

The US adopted that brass forward inclined pan with the M1816 musket. You are correct about the M1842

I thought I read the US used the 1877 French Charleville brass inclined pan on the 1895 musket as well, Clark.

Sorry for the late reply, Daryl, I just noticed this. But the US did not use brass pans on any regulation musket until the 1816. All previous muskets used various steel pans. I'm not saying there may have been some experimentation before the M1816, just talking approved models.

[CarolinaNoob]

Just found this source for parts, hope this helps someone on down the line:

https://stores.butchsantiquegunparts.com/categories/u-s-military-flintlock-musket-parts/u-s-model-1816-21-flintlock-musket.html

[Daryl]

Clark- thanks for the note about the pans.