Help troubleshoot Traditions Flintlock (lock)?

[Bob Roller]

Hunterdude
 I found a photo of what I was trying to address in another Reason my question was are you keeping this clean, with a drill bit so the black powder can get in it.
 For some reason Photo will not load


To Bob Roller
I think that these companies made these Pellet rifles to make it easier to loads, the person didn't have to measure the powder and find what amount the gun shot the best at, Lazy man loading, load 2 50 gr pellets and the bullet. Thompson Center had the Firestorm that was designed for the pellets also.

"Firestorm"? Sounds like Hollywood or a 500CID engine in a Chevette or MGTD.I remember hearing these 21st
century "improvements" were mostly made to extend a hunting season for those who had no idea about a real muzzle loader and no real interest in learning about one or accepting the historical significance of the long rifle
of the past.
Bob Roller

[tecum-tha]

This breech is worse than my removed Pedersoli one. About the same diameter but even deeper. How this thing is supposed to ignite pellets or even loose powder is unexplainable to me. Only if filled with priming powder leading to a fuze effect.
I bet the percussion version has the same breech and may be working better. But percussion wirks on a different ignition principle.

[bob in the woods]

Trying to make this piece of junk into something good is futile IMO.  If it were mine, I'd just cut off that breach, install a new one ; move the barrel back in the stock and be done with it.

[tecum-tha]

@Hunterdude:
This portion of the breech plug with the removed threads and this black rubber ring. Does this portion go into the rifled part of the barrel or did they drill deeper with the tap drill and only threaded it an inch deep?

[Hunterdude]

The o-ring portion of the breech plug fits into a reamed smooth hole to create a gas seal. The rifling begins right at the face of the breech plug as it should.

[tecum-tha]

That makes it really hard to modify and shorten that lousy plug without moving the barrel. That length is not needed and detrimental fir functionality in a flint gun.
I would ream that center hole open to 5/16 or even 11/32, depending on steel left without the threads.

[Bob Roller]

Once the breech plug is replaced then the lock must also be replaced.Repairing it may be more than replacement.In a flintlock gun of any kind the LOCK is the heart of the gun/There was a REAL GOOD reason the
lock filers of London and other cities went to extremes in perfecting these wonderful locks besides to obstruct the oncoming fulminate/percussion system that finally rendered them obsolete.This whole episode seems like a study in futility to me.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

The touch hole liner has a .063 vent hole (not shabby) AND is slightly coned from the back side (also good thing)

This photo shows the vent liner removed and looking down into its threaded hole....here we see what I will call the 2nd powder restriction! I feel the threads should break out into the center chamber but you can see a reduced diameter at the bottom of the tapped hole....that reduced area is only .118 diameter so if the center chamber actually filled up the powder has to turn a 90 degree turn and go thru this small .118 hole to actually fill up to the back of the cone touch hole liner....I bet this almost never happens!
    I propose removing this restriction to help the powder "turn the corner" I think this could be a huge improvement on ignition.

The step at the bottom of the threaded vent hole, is good. This provides a "base" for the vent, which reduces actual pressure on the vent itself.
The went us quite small in diameter.
Your drive and willingness to 'modify' the gun to make it better is commendable, however I have to wonder is it worth this "work".
Boring out the flash channel will certainly help with ignition as it will allow poured REAL black powder access to the pan flash.  When we load out flinters, then look at the vent
we see a powder granule right there at the vent.  This is as it should be. Some people always prick the vent before priming, but I don't see this as a necessity..  When I see powder
right there at the vent, I know ignition will be quick and sure.
Do you now how to knapp a flint to re-sharpen it?  If not, you should be able to search knapping a flint right here at ALR and see a demo. I think Taylor did a how-to on this which should be available. 

[Hunterdude]

Hello Daryl, I would agree that if the threaded touchhole liner "bottomed out" on that reduced hole area, this would create a seal. This is Not what Traditions did.
   My new photo shows the Side View of the Stock Traditions touch hole liner, it is only 3/16" long and a depth Mic shows the threads to be 5/16" deep, so the threads are a full 1/8" from reaching the reduced area. It would seem Traditions is hopeful the larger diameter "Hat" will seat in the small "spot face" closest to the pan, the liner "bottoms out" on this but I doubt it makes a great seal.
   If I upgrade to a White Lighting liner and remove the restriction, a lot of problems go away.

RE: flint sharpen-
I have taken a larger nail and filed a flat on the side but stop the flat leaving a tiny "tooth"... By placing this tooth on the dull flint edge and light taps with a hammer I have chipped a new edge, but I am sure there are better ways of doing it.

[Bob Roller]

That thing must be a "Kunniblin Widget"and has no place in a muzzle loading rifle.
Bob Roller

[tecum-tha]

I think the biggest issue is that there is no powder getting next to the touchhole due to that idiotic long breech plug whith a tiny diameter long powder channel.
All but the finest powder will bridge and every little bit of oil or gunk will go there after sitting for a bit. 
First shot maybe, second shot, good luck.
The tragic thing is, that the stuff seems to be machined fairly well. The threads essentially even need to be timed, otherwise the barrel vertical alignment would be messed up, which it probably isn't. They could do less machining work and this gun would function from a breech perspective if you get the pan charge ignited....
 

[Hunterdude]

Yes, the breech plug thread/shoulder is timed beautifully!...the barrel is round, but the breech plug is Octagon, and just as you start to feel the slightest resistance the touch hole comes into perfect alignment with the pan....interesting they could do that so well yet get so many other things so wrong.
   The barrel removal is a breeze, simply pull 1 barrel wedge then loosen 2 lock screws (slightly) and the barrel pulls right out...it has a simplified hooked breech to retain the rear of barrel assembly.
   As you replace the barrel, you drop the barrel in place and install the 1 barrel wedge pin, then as you snug the 2 lock screws as the lock is drawn up to the breech plug flat if the rotation is even one degree off the breech plug flat aligns it self perfectly with the lock bolster as the breech plug is just finger tight and need not be torqued to seal as the o-ring is doing all the heavy lifting for gas seal.

[Daryl]

Notched Flint knapper is used in a rocking motion. It works, as does the copper ended striker..

[Lucky R A]

          As said these rifles are bought by guys who want to "fill tags" in the late season w/o much investment in equipment.  Most are beginners with absolutely no knowledge of flintlocks other than want comes with the new PA Pellet Ultra Lite"  There is a site "Pa Flintlock Hunter" on Facebook where a lot of the users share their problems and try to find solutions.  The opinions and information given out is absolutely scary sometimes.  I have seen several post where the barrel and the breechplug separated.  One poster said that they had two barrels burst at the breechplug.  Some have caught on to priming the breechplug with 4-f to get things going.  Some are finding cut flints and are having better success.  It is a shame that many will be come discouraged with such inferior equipment, but as the saying goes" you get what you pay for."   

[Bob Roller]

The last thing a person who knows nothing about a muzzle loader needs is any kind of a flintlock unless  he or she has a competent
and knowledgeable friend/instructor to show how these guns work and even better,to go and look at the rifle to see if it has an operational lock that will put sparks in the pan.Some of these space age muzzle loaders have really weird  things built into them that guarantee even more frustration.Fast reloading and muzzle loaders are a contradiction with a round ball rifle and only slightly faster with a bullet and paper cartridge,My own knowledge of "powder pellets" is zero so I will close rhis rant.
Bob Roller

[tecum-tha]

These rifles are bought by people who want to fill a tag.
That is probably true, but can you blame them for trying to do that?
These people look for an inexpensive gun. Their argument is simple. Most of them have a modern production bolt action at home for around $400-500. These guns are sub MOA. For them, it fits right in their expected price segment, that something primitive is in about the same price range.
In addition, that is the only primitive gun they see online or in their gun shops. Sometimes it is an all inclusive package.
Pricewise, this is also true for modern muzzleloaders. Their price ranges from $200 -600 generally. So roughly half to 2/3 of a primitive gun they are buying.
By snubbing this segment of shooters, we do ourselves a great disservice. This is the mass market segment, where a muzzleloader is equal besides their modern inexpensive counterparts. They are not historically interested nor are they interested in purist " historical" accuracy of gun schools. They want a functioning tool that shoots when they pull the trigger.
The majority will give up on flintlock  muzzleloading/ or muzzleloading alltogether after the shown experience.
Maybe 5% will buy an offering in the Kibler class later if they hear something about it. Others are lost. Lost as potential customers and source of revenue for black powder related businesses or artists.

[bob in the woods]

I and those I know have never snubbed shooters of any sort who have an interest in muzzleloaders....for whatever reason.  Not telling them the truth about the equipment they have purchased or are considering purchasing is the real disservice. The fact is , modern guns are relatively easy to use. Going back in history, the equipment is much more demanding of the user. As a luthier, and musician, I see much the same thing in that too many folks start out on a cheap instrument. Often they never progress past their initial interest because they are basically working with junk. There are still some serviceable relatively inexpensive muzzleloaders out there which are better than this example. I've seen some older Safari Arms, CVA, and Lyman guns that are miles ahead of this abomination. Just my 2 cents

[tecum-tha]

That is correct, but here is an article from an "expert" these people would listen to:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/the-pa-pellet-flintlock-from-traditions-performance-firearms/

You can't make this stuff up....
If you stuff your breech plug with 4F to get reliable ignition, I wonder that this guy doesn't think this is a problem. He advocates for a fuse....
I can theoretically also see why there may have been a separation from barrel and plug. If very fine powder gets between the breech plug side and the barrel up to where that rubber? gas seal is, that could be potentially dangerous. Personally, I think one or two idiots used smokeless like at most "accidents" involving material failure.
That private Facebook group has 10600 members. I don't do Facebook, but I bet you find dumb stories in there. Another Facebook group shows a lot of killed deer and I would say 80% are one of these inexpensive production flintlock guns like TC/CVA/Traditions.

[Bob Roller]

Low end ideas and high end potential for injuries with scars that do not go away.
Bob Roller

[Lucky R A]

        I am in no way snubbing potential muzzleloader shooters.  I have built muzzleloaders full time as a hobby/business since 1998.  I have seen a lot of newbies in the shop.  I try to advise them to buy good used custom guns, or the better entry level commercial guns.  It is too bad that "marketing"  has targeted this segment.  The product tries to come as close to "load and shoot" as it can.  Some of these guys are good hunters, others just want to go sling lead and fill another tag.  Traditional (flintlock) Muzzleloading is so much more than that, but marketing just wants to sell an endless list of products, and care nothing for tradition.   Accidents and product failures will cause the government will step in with regulations , and ruin the sport that we have been enjoying for so many years.   
 

[recurve]

Re shape the frizen  spring to open faster and the foot to open wider . check frizen with a file (should not cut ) might need a new hard one

[tecum-tha]

Nice, essentially things that can be done with a powerfile/belt sander/ or glass plate and wet sandpaper? Aside from having a soft frizzen of course.
Did you take any measurements how much you removed or what is the final angle in the open position?
On the frizzen spring, any idea how much you removed? Could be easily measured with one of these luggage digital scales and some braided serving thread to tie it in position.
Can you tell us what gun model this is?