Help troubleshoot Traditions Flintlock (lock)?

[Hunterdude]

Here is my problem child. I know that Traditions locks (Flintlock) are near the bottom of the barrel, I have a Kibler SMR kit on order to solve my long term lock issue, but would like to get this one up and running.
   The as delivered performance is: only lights the prime powder approx 30% of the time and eats flints like candy.
   I have heard of people gentle massage the Frizzen spring with C-clamp helps the flint wear a bit less and also hardening Frizzen could gain some sparks. It's hard to see but I feel Most of the few sparks it makes land on the far side, past the pan and closer to Frizzen. My flint tip is almost 1/8 inch above the tallest part of the pan wall in fired state,(photo) would getting the cock a bit deeper in the pan help get sparks centered on the prime powder? Any other tips would be greatly appreciated!

[rich pierce]

I’d start with how does the lock spark with no prime. Is this your first flintlock? Is your flint sharp? Is the frizzen hard (does a fine file skate on it)? Does the frizzen flip open reliably when firing the lock? What are you using for priming?

[bob in the woods]

The few I've seen had some issues re the frizzen being less than hard and the cock /flint struck rather low on the frizzen surface . If you look at the frizzen and spring arrangement, the geometry looks "off" . Actually, I'm not impressed with the internals of the ones I've seen.
I fooled around with a couple of these locks for friends and got them to work better than they had been by polishing and hardening/tempering some of the wear points, but in the end, both friends elected to replace the locks with the L&R  RPL locks.  It didn't take much work to fit them, and the 2 guns work a lot better . 

[Hunterdude]

Update: out of the box it would not flip the Frizzen open all the way Most of the time. Also it would put a .030 wide blunt edge on a sharp flint in 3 strikes.
    I really did not want to crush my Frizzen spring with a c-clamp so I altered the Frizzen lobe that rubs on Frizzen spring and now I am getting the Frizzen open 100% of the time with the flint in photo. The spark looks very weak in daylight....not quite as bad in a darkened room.
    I rubbed a file on the stock Frizzen face tonight and it will put faint scratches and grab a Tiny bit on the Frizzen but not pull any metal with light pressure...not as soft as I thought, but not super hard.
  I put the rifle away after it chipped all my sharp flints But I am getting it back out now to work with it.
   This is only my second Flintlock, My Pedersoli has "some" failed ignition issues as well, but I think it could benefit from a white lightning touch hole liner....the Pedersoli will at least light the prime powder 95% of the time. I use fresh dry 3F in the pan, but I may have a lb of 4F stashed.
    I have not worked with a sharp flint since I altered the lobe on the Frizzen because it had blunted the few sharp flints I had on hand. I will buy a large quantity on my next order. Also will work on my flint knapping skills.

[BrianS]

Is that lead holding your flint? The worst performance and flint life I've ever experienced with a "similar lock" is when using lead instead of leather.

[rick/pa]

Have you tired flipping the flint?  Some locks work best with bevel up, some like the bevel down.  It's the first thing I do when using a new lock.

[Hunterdude]

Is that lead holding your flint? The worst performance and flint life I've ever experienced with a "similar lock" is when using lead instead of leather.

   Yes!...That IS Lead holding my Flint in the photo, I used Lead on my Pedersoli because the flint always seemed to work loose with leather. I certainly am willing to try leather on this lock.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Regarding the use of leather to hold the flint:  it is true that with a leather pad, your flint will from time to time need to be re-tightened with a proper fitting large screw driver.  Attending to your flint is one of the things that makes a flintlock either work well or is unreliable.  Your flint does not have to be knapped all the way across it's width.  Usually, there is a small smooth rounded off spot that interferes with the rest of the flint from scraping the frizzen face.  Remove this little knob, and your flint will scrape the frizzen more evenly and with more authority.  There is a knack to knapping your flint that just requires some confidence and practice.  I have made my own napping hammers for my flintlocks using a two inch length of copper rod or bar into which I silver solder a screw driver bit that I forge from 1/4" drill rod.  I make the turn screw head as wide as the slot in the top jaw screw, and thin enough to fit it without slop.  The T handled tool makes adjusting your flint very easy and secure, and the driver bit becomes a handle to use the copper end to chip the flint exactly where and how I want.  I'll see if I can find a photo.  All my shot bags have one of these tools...imperative.

[Hunterdude]

If you zoom the photo in first post, you may see the depression for the pan is only a Tiny bit wider than the touch hole liner and there is quite a bit of "Flat" around it. I was thinking of enlargement of the pan depression where the prime powder goes? Not to hold more powder but in the hope that a few more hot sparks may land inside the depression for better ignition...would there be any down side to this type of modification?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Making the pan a little more T spoon shaped will disburse the prime over a wider area and this will aid in catching sparks better.  There is no down side to enlarging the pan proving you don't let the grinder go crazy and ruin the pan altogether.  But when a lot is working at its optimum, even a very narrow pan works super fast.

[pilot]

From what little I know about flintlocks, it sounds like your frizzen spring I'd too strong.  If you have a trigger scale, pull it open with the scale hooked to the top of the frizzen.  It is suggested the weight of that pull be 1/3 The weight of pulling the cock back to full cock.

If you need to reduce the strength of the spring, there is two ways to do it.  File the bend of the spring on the edge or reduce the radius by stoning the radius.  Go slow and test it often.

[tecum-tha]

Not near, but are the bottom of the barrel.
A lot depends on the geometry. Namely the strike angle of the flint on the frizzen. If it hits too square, it shatters the flint, if it hits too shallow there is not enough force to scrape off material from the frizzen. If the mainspring is very strong and it hits square, that makes for a true flinteater.
Can you post pictures of the lock with frizzen closed with camera parallel to the lock?

[Daryl]

Interesting breech. I don't believe I have  EVER  seen one like that before.

[Jeff Murray]

From the picture there does not seem to be any friction between the edge of the frizzen and the flat of the barrel.  You might check the bearing surfaces between the frizzen and the frizzen spring to make sure they are glass smooth.  Try a little graphite lube to see if that frees up your frizzen a bit.  Also check the lock mortise to make sure you have no resistace from wood rubbing against the lock or frizzen spring.

[Hunterdude]

For those wondering, this is a Traditions PA pellet ultralight. It was intended to be light and shoot pellet powder, but I will only shoot loose real black powder from the horn. I procured this for a low price and had in mind to possibly ream and polish out the rifling and make it into a budget small Fowler/Shotgun but not sure yet.
   I like the idea of maybe soot up the lock and see if anything is rubbing on internals. Also like the idea of rounding out the pan teaspoon shaped. I also have a can of Cherry-Red from MBS so I may attempt a thin case harden of Frizzen.
   The photo is of the lock on half cock and Frizzen closed, should it hit higher/lower?

[Jim Evans]

Flint reference and Spoon shape reference.

[Daryl]

I also like the flint to strike high and scrape the full length of the frizzen. Some locks like bevel down(higher strike), others like bevel up generally lower strike.  Much depends on the lock's geometry.

[tecum-tha]

This is where flintlocks get their "bad" reputation from:


The pure count of misfires is funny. Count the ignition attempts even at the doe.
The deer are so nice and give the guy way too many attempts to kill them.

The comments are a a reflection of this hunters "experience".
Two things I have not seen yet:
How does the breech look like in these guns and it would be really interesting to find out what the lock issues are.
The hangfire when it finally goes off is almost about as bad as it can get.
Does anyone have one of these guns with a L&R replacement lock? Is the breech still an issue or did you get reliable ignition?
 

[tecum-tha]

The good thing is, that one can clearly see that the flint does not hit the frizzen square enough to open it and just scrapes along.
Is the mainspring too weak in relation to the frizzen spring?
I think this actually may be a geometry issue which my crappy Pedersoli Hatfield Rifle flintlock from 1993 also had.
It liked to not open the frizzen entirely,too, but ignited the priming powder reliably. Problem is, you have to clean the frizzen much more frequently.

[bob in the woods]

This is where flintlocks get their "bad" reputation from:


The pure count of misfires is funny. Count the ignition attempts even at the doe.
The deer are so nice and give the guy way too many attempts to kill them.

The comments are a a reflection of this hunters "experience".
Two things I have not seen yet:
How does the breech look like in these guns and it would be really interesting to find out what the lock issues are.
The hangfire when it finally goes off is almost about as bad as it can get.
Does anyone have one of these guns with a L&R replacement lock? Is the breech still an issue or did you get reliable ignition?

As I mentioned, I did replace the lock for a friend.   The RPL from L&R is miles ahead of the original, but the breech /vent arrangement is still not to my liking.  The vent channel is longgggg and he has to spend the time to make sure it's clear after every shot. The powder chamber is of a smaller diameter than the bore, so he has a smaller cleaning attachment on a separate rod when target shooting.   In a hunting situation , I have never had my gun fail to fire . Never .   I'm not shy to say that I'm not a fan of the Traditions guns.  Here in Ontario, they are running close to $ 900. last time I checked, so not much of a deal when you consider what you can buy for that $

[Hunterdude]

Wow, $900 is WAY to much for this rifle. I have a tick over $400 into this one but I purchased it a couple years before Covid.

   The photo of the pan on the Kibler lock is awsome, the pan shape looks near ideal to me.

    The breach is removable without tools except a screwdriver for easy cleaning, but it has a long hole somewhat like a Patent breech and that hole is not much more than 1/8 inch....I think if this hole was opened to maybe 1/4 inch And a White lightning touch hole added "might" improve the ignition.

[Jim Evans]

Does your breech plug look like this in photo that I found online?
Also I think a 1/8 drill bit will clean the small channel,But only turn by Hand only.



If so then this in the touch hole you need.

[Bob Roller]

That picture to me shows a flint held by something that appears to interfere with the sharp edge of the flint.
You stated that it was a questionable lock to begin with. It isn't possible to make a Town Car out of a Pinto
and that's a fact.
Bob Roller

[Hunterdude]

Does your breech plug look like this in photo that I found online?
Also I think a 1/8 drill bit will clean the small channel,But only turn by Hand only.



If so then this in the touch hole you need.

Yes, that is exactly the breech that I have, my primary concern is I don't think 3F powder reliable fills the 1/8" hole at loading when the channel is Clean, let alone when fouled. I would like to open up the 1/8" hole and cone/polish the entry hole in hopes of getting a complete powder fill.
  Thanks for the link for touch hole replacement.

[Hunterdude]

That picture to me shows a flint held by something that appears to interfere with the sharp edge of the flint.
You stated that it was a questionable lock to begin with. It isn't possible to make a Town Car out of a Pinto
and that's a fact.
Bob Roller

Hello Bob, you are correct, I have my "Town Car" on order from Kibler....I will be happy if all my efforts get my "Pinto" to "start" at least 95% of the time.
    There is nothing interfering with the Flint in the photo...that Flint has More than a 1/16" flat on the no longer sharp end, it is really that dull! I have to order more flints and practice sharpening my own.