Help troubleshoot Traditions Flintlock (lock)?

[tecum-tha]

Isn't that a pellet flintlock?
How do they think to ignite pellets with this?
Are there any instructions?
This breech seems to be worse than my old crappy Pedersoli breech, which was cut off and replaced by a flat flintlock breech and since then works every time.

@ Bob Roller:
Based on what you see, do you think this is mainly a lock geometry issue, a spring issue or a combination of both?
It appears that the frizzen face is rather flat than more curved in the L&R picture.

[Jim Evans]

Yes, that is exactly the breech that I have, my primary concern is I don't think 3F powder reliable fills the 1/8" hole at loading when the channel is Clean, let alone when fouled. I would like to open up the 1/8" hole and cone/polish the entry hole in hopes of getting a complete powder fill.
 

The 1//8 hole is in the flash channel (which is touching the powder in the barrel) not the touch hole.

You do not need a complete pan of powder and you do not want it touching the flash hole , you only need a small amount of powder in the pan ,something like in this photo (Don't be worried on how this pan is shaped)

[Stoner creek]

Isn't that a pellet flintlock?
How do they think to ignite pellets with this?
Are there any instructions?
This breech seems to be worse than my old crappy Pedersoli breech, which was cut off and replaced by a flat flintlock breech and since then works every time.

@ Bob Roller:
Based on what you see, do you think this is mainly a lock geometry issue, a spring issue or a combination of both?
It appears that the frizzen face is rather flat than more curved in the L&R picture.

What is a pellet flintlock? Never heard of one in my 40+ years of playing this game.

[Bob Roller]

If the lock is only partly functional and can't be made to work right then the vent is a moot point.IF the lock can be made to work the maybe a tapered hole can be made.What is that thread diameter and how long is it.
Some of these new muzzle loaders are like the Model "T" Ford,they started at the bottom and went down .
Bob Roller 

[Hunterdude]

Isn't that a pellet flintlock?
How do they think to ignite pellets with this?
Are there any instructions?
This breech seems to be worse than my old crappy Pedersoli breech, which was cut off and replaced by a flat flintlock breech and since then works every time.

@ Bob Roller:
Based on what you see, do you think this is mainly a lock geometry issue, a spring issue or a combination of both?
It appears that the frizzen face is rather flat than more curved in the L&R picture.

What is a pellet flintlock? Never heard of one in my 40+ years of playing this game.

Mr. Stoner creek, Count your blessings that you are not familiar with pellet powder, it is typical substitute BP formed into a cylinder with a hole in center for those yucky inline rifles.
   Traditions "tryed" to make the PA pellet flintlock to appeal to the inline guys to comply with the flintlock only deer season. It was/is a terrible idea to try to light substitute BP with a Flintlock...if it is loose or pellet matters not!

[Stoner creek]

I hate terrible ideas.

[Bob Roller]

Isn't that a pellet flintlock?
How do they think to ignite pellets with this?
Are there any instructions?
This breech seems to be worse than my old crappy Pedersoli breech, which was cut off and replaced by a flat flintlock breech and since then works every time.

@ Bob Roller:
Based on what you see, do you think this is mainly a lock geometry issue, a spring issue or a combination of both?
It appears that the frizzen face is rather flat than more curved in the L&R picture.

Usually the curve of the frizzen face should be slightly different than the arc of the cock to create enough resistance for a good scrape and the frizzen spring should be strong enough to hold the frizzen closed while carrying the rifle.Thebest firing  locks I made were a Ketland made only by me during the "Flint Hawken" time
of the late 1970's.It had a reenforced cock and the flint worked best flat side down.The curve of the frizznen was established by a 5x1 medium grinding wheel.I made the last one in 2008 for my own gun.The external parts were bought from the now deceased Jerry Devaudreuil and I have one or two frizzens left "just in case".
The closest lock made now is an L&R rpl for the Dixie Squirrel rifle and maybe the Cochran.I never used those parts so can't comment on how they perform.
The L&R lock in the picture should be a good performer based on the photo.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

That hang-fire was almost long enough to be dangerous.

[tecum-tha]

@Hunterdude:
Can you pull the breech plug on your gun and post pictures how it looks like from the "muzzle end"?
Can you measure how deep that plug is to the center of the touchhole?
This thing looks like a "major engineering" screw up....
If you have any of these pellets, do they fit inside this breech plug chamber?
I would still like to understand what this accelerator thing was supposed to be doing....
Can you shoot a slow motion movie with your phone of the lock in action with the entire lock in Focus? That may help to figure out what that flint is really doing.
@Bob Roller:
I had one of these Thompson Center Carbines in flintlock and the lock wasn't a great sparker either. This lock also had a very straight frizzen surface.
I think it would be an interesting kinematic study to compare the geometry of this lock in 2D and compare it to a lock that functions well.
Could it be, that by grinding the frizzen surface with a specific radius wheel would allow the flint to actually scrape?
I think the flint is sliding along,not scraping.



 

[Bob Roller]

@Hunterdude:
Can you pull the breech plug on your gun and post pictures how it looks like from the "muzzle end"?
Can you measure how deep that plug is to the center of the touchhole?
This thing looks like a "major engineering" screw up....
If you have any of these pellets, do they fit inside this breech plug chamber?
I would still like to understand what this accelerator thing was supposed to be doing....
Can you shoot a slow motion movie with your phone of the lock in action with the entire lock in Focus? That may help to figure out what that flint is really doing.
@Bob Roller:
I had one of these Thompson Center Carbines in flintlock and the lock wasn't a great sparker either. This lock also had a very straight frizzen surface.
I think it would be an interesting kinematic study to compare the geometry of this lock in 2D and compare it to a lock that functions well.
Could it be, that by grinding the frizzen surface with a specific radius wheel would allow the flint to actually scrape?
I think the flint is sliding along,not scraping.

I know nothing about pellets used as a propellant and don't know if even a flaming hot strike form a Manton lock could ignite it.This whole thing sounds like a sales gimmick to me but at least the deer are safe until a real hunter with a real flintlock shows up.I have seen flintlocks that only knocked the frizzen out of the way and no amount of hardening can help them.I have recurved a very few of them and got improved results but nothing like the Ketlands I made.The last group of those locks I made was 6 for a woman in Switzerland and the very last one for my own gun.A precisely made set of internal parts with an active and well preloaded mainspring
goes a long way as well.THAT IS the lock and the sweep of the cock to a properly curved frizzen face will put meat in the pot.I will make no more Ketlands and the one I made was NOT like Chambers or Kiblers and I knew it was a Ketland because a former friend had an antique rifle with an identical lock that was plainly marked KETLAND.It was a more compact lock bot not as good looking as the Chambers or Kibler Ketlands now made.
   That odd breech seems to me like an attempt to fix something that wasn't broke to begin with and pellets are to me a projectile for an air powered gun.I would not put any more time into it unless that lock can be made to reliably ignite real black powder.
Bob Roller

[Jim Evans]

Hunterdude
 I found a photo of what I was trying to address in another Reason my question was are you keeping this clean, with a drill bit so the black powder can get in it.
 For some reason Photo will not load


To Bob Roller
I think that these companies made these Pellet rifles to make it easier to loads, the person didn't have to measure the powder and find what amount the gun shot the best at, Lazy man loading, load 2 50 gr pellets and the bullet. Thompson Center had the Firestorm that was designed for the pellets also.

[Daryl]

The long laborious powder channel is why the ignition problems WHEN the pan finally goes off.
Enlarging the flash channel to the main powder charge will likely help. Using loose, REAL black powder
is also the "only" way, unless you must use pellets, then dump in real powder first, followed by a pellet
of T7. NO PYRODEX!.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have never seen anything like that before.  The rifle and everything that goes with it is junk.  It won't work in Italy any better than it does in this continent.  If all flintlock guns worked as badly as this, we'd have succumbed to cap and ball and never looked back.  Thankfully, they do not.  I can't believe the subject's view that this is ok.  Unbelieveable.

[Bob Roller]

I have never seen anything like that before.  The rifle and everything that goes with it is junk.  It won't work in Italy any better than it does in this continent.  If all flintlock guns worked as badly as this, we'd have succumbed to cap and ball and never looked back.  Thankfully, they do not.  I can't believe the subject's view that this is ok. 

This is all very new and weird to this geezer and would not spend any time on trying to fix it.I am only barely aware of "Modern Muzzleloaders".I made a few suggestions and raised a question about that odd breech plug
but wouldn't try to fix it in my machine shop.I was not aware of pelletized propellents and was only aware of fake powders that cause corrosion quickly.To me,the idea of using a muzzle loader is to accept the challenges presented by such a gun and there are not that many.
Bob Roller

[tecum-tha]

I don't want to defend the manufacturer for their flintlock version, but "the rifle and everything that goes with it is junk" is an overall simplification.
The barrel material is better than 12L14, which is the majority of custom ML barrels.
According to sources from this board, a barrel made of this chrome-moly steel would cost about $500 made in the US.
This rifle retail price is about $420, percussion cheaper (about $380). Has a Williams Fire Sight on it, which costs about $35 bought separately. Great sight in early and dusk conditions in dark forests.
Rifling is button rifling, but I have never seen that to cause a functional accuracy problem, neither with conical bullets nor with patched round ball.
Comes in either fast twist 1:28 or in a 1:48 all-purpose twist depending on the particular version of the gun.
Buy this gun as a percussion (= deerhunter rifle) and it will be a good working gun for even less $$.
The only functional issue with these guns is generally only with the flintlock versions.
Historical accuracy is unimportant for this gun's purpose but being legal when it comes to the state game laws is.
Because PA only allows flintlocks, PA is the primary target market for these guns. The majority of people buy the percussion version.
The question now is, if it is the breech and the lock or the lock alone which makes the flintlock version so bad?
And the question is, is there a simple solution that turns this into a functional piece?
Like grinding a slight radius into the frizzen with a bench grinder wheel with a specific diameter in 10 min and flint up? Widening the pan with a dremel in 5 min?  Is the cock formed wrong creating bad angles? Or is it the spring balance? What has the most influence and is the governing point of the solution?
I have encountered another one of these old maslin locks, and with these, it was mostly the geometry which made them this bad. But this lock was so small, there was no modification possible. 
These locks are built with general acceptable tolerances when it comes to parts.

[Craig Wilcox]

I tried out the percussion version many years ago.  The pellets ignited easily with the caps, but at 50 yards, the shots were laddered from 8" above the bull to 10" below.
When I got home that day, I weighed all the remaining pellets - they varied from 58.0 gr to 46.2 gr - probably if you weighed the pellets to get 100 gr total for each shot, the rifle might be a better shooter.
18" vertical spread at 50 yards is no way to hunt deer - or anything else.

[tecum-tha]

You will not get an 18" spread @50 yards if your powder charge is +/-15 grains. This issue was more likely on the projectile side as well and barrel slickness when not wiped.
No one is saying pellets are good. Not necessary anyways, because there are loose black powder substitutes. Pre-measuring loose is quicker than fooling with pellets anyways.

[Bob Roller]

IF you have a rifle with what APPEARS to be a flintlock as defined by most of us on this forum and it will not generate sparks to ignite the priming in the pan then this becomes a description of a floor lamp if the barrel is long enough.Modernizing an old and proven lock to the point where it becomes non functional even with easily fired black powder is no improvement but it might be patented as a new type of safety for muxzzleloaders.
To hunt with or drive a good distance to a range and then have persistent aggravation is no way to spend a day and for me that is a 34 mile round trip.Sorta like someone with a modern gun finding he has the right gun and the wrong ammo.
Bob Roller

[bob in the woods]

The barrel material is not relevant if the thing doesn't fire ! 

[tecum-tha]

None of these locks was improved. They stated the breech was improved, which I can't see.
Now it comes down to the lock and obviously all the internals seem to work fine. The flint is in the jaws, it hits the frizzen and no or very few sparks and the frizzen in the video the frizzen did not open.
Obviously there are some sparks, that means the mainspring is not too weak to create some.
Are we able to analyze through lines and angles in CAD if it is a geometry issue based on measurements taken by the OP on the lock? Is a geometry ratio out of wack in comparison to a good working US production lock?

[Hunterdude]

Update: I have not been moving along on this project as fast as the thread is moving, but will share a little.
    Bone stock the Frizzen takes a similar amount of force to knock open as it takes to pull back the Cock. This is why the Frizzen "stalls". I am told that the Cock should take about 3x the force (to cock) of the Frizzen force to open.
    I have modified the geometry of the cam that rubs on the Frizzen spring and think I am getting close to the 3-1 ratio. I plan to do more polishing and try the graphite lube to reduce friction loss. I hope to pull the lock and see if I can increase the speed of the Cock as well.
     In its current (not far into) state of tune the sparks ARE getting better!...almost "impressive" in a darkened room, but still not great in daylight.....I am wondering out loud if the sparks that are visible in "daylight" are the ones "Hot" enough to get the job done? I am still running that crazy dull flint in my photo (sorry) but hope to make a test with sharp flint soon!
    I understand that many/most members turn there nose up at this rifle, and that's fine,(I do to, and Have ordered a Kibler!) I would like to simply point out that I have Never endorsed or suggested Anyone purchase one of these, (And STRONGLY discourage purchase) I have all ready spent my $400 on it, so I will "try" to get it working rather than dump it in the trash (as suggested). I have a machinist background and you can call me a glutton for punishment.....but there is a certain amount of Satisfaction for me if I can take a "dog" and get it up and running!....Also we are in the dead of winter here and bird season is over, so it does not have to be a "great" project to  entertain me
   For the 1 or 2 persons that may be interested, I plan to pull the crazy breech plug out and make a crude sketch of the terrible flame path (with dimension's) and also perhaps a second crude sketch of my proposed modifications.
   In summary, I don't think I can make it into a "great" rifle but DO feel I can improve it dramatically. Also it will Never be feed anything but Real Loose Genuine Black Powder while in my possession.

[Daryl]

One question I have, is how large (diameter) is the vent. Is this the 1/8" (.125") you are talking about?

[Hunterdude]

One question I have, is how large (diameter) is the vent. Is this the 1/8" (.125") you are talking about?

   The 1/8" hole I was speaking of turned out to be .138 diameter....it is the whopping 1.5 inch deep flame path hole that goes out to the main powder charge! I have a drill bit stuck in the hole in my photo.
    The breach plug threads are a nice class of fit but the o-ring you see near the breech end actually does the job of sealing, this lets the breech plug be threaded in finger tight and still seal....I think the o-ring seal is what Traditions is claiming as there "improved" breech.
   So as the powder is dumped down the barrel it lands on the flat breach face and is expected to go down the tiny .138 hole enough to fill it 1.5 inches deep, I will call this the 1st restriction.
   I plan a large chamfer on the breech face to funnel the powder to the center hole, then open the center hole to perhaps .250 and if I can taper this hole would be even better to encourage a complete fill.

[Hunterdude]

The touch hole liner has a .063 vent hole (not shabby) AND is slightly coned from the back side (also good thing)

This photo shows the vent liner removed and looking down into its threaded hole....here we see what I will call the 2nd powder restriction! I feel the threads should break out into the center chamber but you can see a reduced diameter at the bottom of the tapped hole....that reduced area is only .118 diameter so if the center chamber actually filled up the powder has to turn a 90 degree turn and go thru this small .118 hole to actually fill up to the back of the cone touch hole liner....I bet this almost never happens!
    I propose removing this restriction to help the powder "turn the corner" I think this could be a huge improvement on ignition.

[Hunterdude]

The Traditions vent liner measures only .191 on the outside diameter of the threads (likely metric) this is pretty small in the world of touch hole liners and I feel opening this up to a White lightning touch hole will give me a much larger rear cone and get more powder closer to the pan, but in the Grand scheme this is far from my worst issue....thought I would share it though.