Rev War associations redux

[WESTbury]

While we are on the subject of Rev War era firearms, I was reviewing old posts and ran in to the "Lion and Lamb" rifle attributed to Albrecht and featured in the Hench auction at Morphy's a couple of years ago.  Nowhere in the auction description is the rifle actually labeled as a Rev War rifle except for this speculative statement; "The completely octagonal rifled barrel has been fitted with a bayonet lug on top near the muzzle for use in the Revolutionary War." It is however, described as " This pre-Revolutionary War rifle".

Has any further information been published on this rifle since the October 2019 auction?

  https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/76254827_a-important-and-historic-lion-and-lamb-moravian

[Eric Kettenburg]

The rifle has been variously attributed to Albrecht or Oerter.  It's a fantastic rifle, and it was brought back here from Britain.  George Shumway wrote a great article for MB magazine a number of years back which outlined the concept that it was a pre-War rifle that at some point was "outfitted for war."  This concept sure does make a lot of sense.  There are two camps as to whether the box is original or was retrofitted to replace a wood box.  I can see it both ways; the stock is very 'slabbed off' on the box side around the box, but it could have been done that way originally to accommodate the cast brass box as easily as it could have been done to retrofit that brass box.  So who knows.  If it was retrofitted, it was done very early in its lifetime.

There's no signature, obviously, but that dagger stamp on the barrel is on probably at least 4 or 5 earlier rifles attributed to the region.  Whether they were imported barrels or locally forged is still is mystery.   

[WESTbury]

Eric,

Thank-you for your very informed reply. I would have liked to have read George's article in MB. Unfortunately, I was "lost in the wilderness of musket collecting" and was not a subscriber.

Kent

[HIB]

Kent,      I believe Dorothy Shumway can re-create George's article on this rifle.   George kept voluminous records of most everything he wrote in the barn file cabinets.  Steve Hench may also have a copy of the article.  Contact me directly for both contact info.     HIB

[Eric Kettenburg]

The auction description frankly pretty much says it all, although George's article had fairly specific measurements.  I'm not sure if Bob's Moravian book offered the same measurements or not as I loaned it to someone and never got it back.    I know I still have a copy of the article somewhere - it was in two parts - but it's probably very 'worn' or crumpled like an old dollar bill.

The key thing to remember about this rifle, which you will note in the auction description, is that you will see copious and use of the word, "probably."  It's unsigned.  I'm not sure who was the first to attribute it to Albrecht although I think George's article was the first to put it in print (I think it was, "Andreas Albrecht's Lion and Lamb Rifle" or something like that).  When the 'griffin' rifle signed by Oerter turned up, a number of people began to question the attribution which is perhaps splitting hairs.  Who knows. 

Speaking for myself, I find the short cheek more characteristic of what is seen later (than the '1760' mentioned in the auction description) in Oerter's dated work, and later work in the Northampton area.  Unfortunately there is really nothing dated to the 1760s in the Northampton area to use as a basis for comparison.  I find the concept that the rifle was "outfitted for War" fairly compelling and self-evident, though, so it clearly appears to be a pre-War gun that was modified.  By the original maker?  More questions!

[WESTbury]

Henry & Eric,

Thanks for your replies and offer Henry.

I would imagine that Steve wrote 95% of Morphy's description as there is no one working there that is qualified. Attributions and dating always seem to be tricky, particularly on civilian arms.

The addition of the bayonet lug and shortening of the rifle seems somewhat odd to me. Of course that would depend on by whom and when it was done. If you think about it, having a short 37" barrel rifle or musket going up against an infantry musket of the same period, having either a Long land or short Land Bess with either a 46" or 42" barrel would put the person carrying this rifle at a great disadvantage. Also, if that rifle was intended for use by an infantryman rather than a rifleman, it would have been wise to bore the barrel smooth to facilitate loading. Perhaps the rifle was intended to be used by a mounted person like a dragoon and fitted with a bayonet for the occasional use by a dismounted dragoon.

This is all pure speculation on my part and I imagine all of my points have been hashed over innumerable times so just ignore what I've written.

Kent

[spgordon]

I'm not sure if Bob's Moravian book offered the same measurements or not as I loaned it to someone and never got it back.

[spgordon]

I'm not sure who was the first to attribute it to Albrecht although I think George's article was the first to put it in print (I think it was, "Andreas Albrecht's Lion and Lamb Rifle" or something like that). 

George's article appeared in March and October 1998 issues of Muzzle Blasts (they're also in vol. 1 of his collection Longrifle Articles, which reprints in facsimile his MB articles). I will try to scan them on Monday and email them to you, Kent.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yeah, that's about exactly how I felt when I went to buy another, realized they were out of print, and then priced what they were going for on the used market!

[WESTbury]

Thanks Scott appreciate you doing that.

One last point on this rifle, in the photos on the KRF CD, the rifle has a different bayonet than the photos from the 2019 auction. perhaps one of the bayonets did not fit the story. The Morphy write-up for the auction was sensible enough to describe the bayonet as "associated". So, who knows what type of bayonet this rifle was actually fitted for.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Thanks Scott appreciate you doing that.

One last point on this rifle, in the photos on the KRF CD, the rifle has a different bayonet than the photos from the 2019 auction. perhaps one of the bayonets did not fit the story. The Morphy write-up for the auction was sensible enough to describe the bayonet as "associated". So, who knows what type of bayonet this rifle was actually fitted for.

Now that's very interesting.  It is interesting that the Morphy's writeup mentions a marking believed to be that of Perkin especially in light of the griffin rifle - with Perkin lock - turning up between George's article and the 2019 auction.  I believe the griffin Oerter turned up in 2006 or 2007; Mike stopped up here with it in June 2007 so I know it was known and photographed by that point.

[JV Puleo]

I can't see the photos so I'm "flying blind" here but what evidence is there that the bayonet was fitted during the Revolution? The fact that the rifle exists today means it was around in the post-Revolutionary era and wasn't, then, all that old. Certainly not old enough to not be useful. I've seen several NE rifles that were fitted for bayonets. They aren't common and, unfortunately, I don't have one but I have seen at least two or three. The militia act of 1792 specified a bayonet...it did not specify a smoothbore and the caliber requirement did not go into effect immediately. The shortage of arms was so acute that virtually anything was acceptable if it met the minimum requirements, which a rifle with a bayonet would.

[WESTbury]

Joe,

The bayonet blade flat shown fixed on the rifle in the KRF CD has standard type British Ordnance markings. 12 over  Crown/6 over the name HARVEY over a large asterisk.

On the socket is US in what looks to be an engraving rather than a stamp. I think we all know about supposed Rev War period "US" marks.

Kent

PS I recall that Mike Brooks had the good taste not to mount a bayonet to his excellent version of the Lion and Lamb rifle an omission for which Mike is to be commended! 

[WESTbury]

Thanks Scott appreciate you doing that.

One last point on this rifle, in the photos on the KRF CD, the rifle has a different bayonet than the photos from the 2019 auction. perhaps one of the bayonets did not fit the story. The Morphy write-up for the auction was sensible enough to describe the bayonet as "associated". So, who knows what type of bayonet this rifle was actually fitted for.

Now that's very interesting.  It is interesting that the Morphy's writeup mentions a marking believed to be that of Perkin especially in light of the griffin rifle - with Perkin lock - turning up between George's article and the 2019 auction.  I believe the griffin Oerter turned up in 2006 or 2007; Mike stopped up here with it in June 2007 so I know it was known and photographed by that point.

It is also interesting to note that the bayonet in the Morphy's photos is marked "IR" not "IP".

[BradBrownBess]

That is a stunner - and I must say the presentation with the bayonet gives it a lot more "umph" (whatever bayonet a chosen...LOL)
Amazing gun.