spot welding a barrel

[tbailey]

I have a swamp barrell B weight, the middle dove tail was cut to deep. Question is can it be spot welded to fill the gap and still be used, or would this action just make the barrel to weak to use.


thanks.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have no way of knowing how much barrel wall you have left, but you should measure it and determine that for yourself.  I don't believe that welding on a barrel is ever a good idea, especially over a thin wall.
You might be able to make a filler of mild steel, without cutting any more out of the dovetail, and solder it in with soft solder.  Then, recut the dovetail to around .030" deep, or about 1/32".  Dovetails need be no deeper than that.

[Pete Allan]

I personally would not weld on a barrel. I do a lot of welding of steel both tubing and plate both stick and mig and on tubing the inside dia. always shrinks quite a bit. I feel it would wreck the barrel. Maybe someone else could be more helpful.

[ironwolf]

  I'd have to concur with all post previous.  A tightly fit dovetail blank, soldered in would be about as strong as you'd need it at the waist. BUT like Taylor say's, just how deep is the slot.  You need to figure how much wall thickness you have between the rifling and the bottom of the dovetail slot.
  If you have doubts as to the importance of your situation, take a look at the pictures Acer posted here of a split barrel.

  KW

[Dphariss]

Forget welding it will screw up the finish in the bore even if it does not warp it at the weld. It will cause the barrel to "crawl" etc. Welding does strange things to steel bars. Might also make it so weak at that point it would fail.
The barrel is scrap for this use.
I just replaced a 50 cal "B" swamp that the original maker dovetailed so deep I considered it unsafe.
Chalk it up to experience and buy a barrel.

Dan

[Steve-In]

You need to find out how much barrel wall is there.  It sounds as if you have a hole through to the barrel.  By the time you filled the dovetail, dressed it down, straightened the barrel and lapped the high spot in the bore you could have a new barrel that you have confidence in.  Take the barrel and make pistol barrels out of it.  You may be able to sell some of them and get back the cost of the new barrel.

[Don Getz]

Before we can really give you good advice we should know how deep that dovetail really is, and how much barrel wall is
remaining.   I can say this because of an incident with the last gun I built.  I installed a 5/16" white lightning touch hole lliner, but apparently screwed up the threads in the process.   The fellow I built it for lives about 6 miles from the shop and has been a friend for many years.   The gun was a 54 cal., and he shot 100 grains of FFF in it.  On the first shot the
liner popped out about 1/16", am not sure how it could do that with the lock in place, but that is what he told me.   He pushed it back in and shot about 15 more shots.......scary, isn't it.    He brought it back into the shop and we removed it,
threads were stripped badly, don't know what held it in there.   No Jim, it wasn't the liner but the threads in the barrel were bad.    I drilled it out and installed a 3/8" white lightning, being especially careful with the threading and am sure I
have the problem solved.  I have never had this happen before, but it did happen.   I also gave him h___ about shooting
so much FFF powder, although it should easily handle this.   I still can't figure out what kept that old liner in the barrel as
he was shooting......it was real bad.   This will give you something to think about..........Don

[Dphariss]

Before we can really give you good advice we should know how deep that dovetail really is, and how much barrel wall is
remaining.   I can say this because of an incident with the last gun I built.  I installed a 5/16" white lightning touch hole lliner, but apparently screwed up the threads in the process.   The fellow I built it for lives about 6 miles from the shop and has been a friend for many years.   The gun was a 54 cal., and he shot 100 grains of FFF in it.  On the first shot the
liner popped out about 1/16", am not sure how it could do that with the lock in place, but that is what he told me.   He pushed it back in and shot about 15 more shots.......scary, isn't it.    He brought it back into the shop and we removed it,
threads were stripped badly, don't know what held it in there.   No Jim, it wasn't the liner but the threads in the barrel were bad.    I drilled it out and installed a 3/8" white lightning, being especially careful with the threading and am sure I
have the problem solved.  I have never had this happen before, but it did happen.   I also gave him h___ about shooting
so much FFF powder, although it should easily handle this.   I still can't figure out what kept that old liner in the barrel as
he was shooting......it was real bad.   This will give you something to think about..........Don

My first question would have been: "What was the proof load?".
The WL is pretty thin when you look at it and it could have been flexing enough to make it grip the walls of the hole somewhat? ? ?
Puzzle to me though....

There is an old saying that covers this as well.
Dan

[oldiemkr]

 lets see. 100 grains fff. B profile 50? The liner pops out and he  PUSHED {?} it back in?
shoots 15 more at 100 fff??

Hat off to Don for giving him $#*! about the load. This guy should buy a few lottery tickets.

[Dphariss]

  I'd have to concur with all post previous.  A tightly fit dovetail blank, soldered in would be about as strong as you'd need it at the waist. BUT like Taylor say's, just how deep is the slot.  You need to figure how much wall thickness you have between the rifling and the bottom of the dovetail slot.
  If you have doubts as to the importance of your situation, take a look at the pictures Acer posted here of a split barrel.

  KW

I have seen modern factory made barrels that split and bulged in the bottom of the underlug dovetail.
We are talking about the potential loss of fingers, hand, someone else present taking some frag in the head. ITS NOT WORTH IT.

Dan

[omark]

oldie, i disagree about the lotto tickets,,, that guy used up all nine lives in those 16 shots!!!     mark   

[Birddog6]

I built a .58 cal. Jaeger for a guy one time. Sent him all the data on the recommended loads.  Couple weeks late he called me & said he really likes it, but it has allot of recoil with 120 grains of 3F Swiss in it.     I said Really    You have the wrong grade of Swiss for a large bore rifle, plus about 40 grains over-charge, and it has allot of recoil ? Hummmmmmm     Who would have thought......

As for the barrel ?  Don't weld it.  When you weld it all kinds of things happen to the metal ya can't see. The metal hardens around the weld making it crack more easily, it will shrink the bore in that area & most likely bow the barrel in that area even if you clamp it down.  Don't silver solder a lug in there either, as that will also shrink the bore in that spot.

 IMHO, Take some measurements, it is either safe or not, proceed if it is thick enough there & if not scrap the barrel & use it to practice engraving on.

Keith

[doulos]

Well fellas this leads me to a question. But keep in mind I probably know less about this stuff than anyone . If heat is so bad on a barrel then is damage done when ribs are soldered to a hawken?
I have a Colerain tapered 58 that I can't seem to drive out the rear sight I want too replace. I have bent a few bronze drifts and it didn't budge. I have soaked it in Kroil and tapped it with a steel drift and still. I'm suspecting its soldered in place. And I was going to heat it slightly and try again but this thread has me questioning what to do next.
Please bear with my ignorance.

[Birddog6]

That underrib is soft soldered on & that is not enough heat to damage anything. Same way with the sight, tho I doubt the sight is soldered. Must likely really good fit on the dovetail & never been moved & rusted in the dovetail.   When you weld something you are changing the molecular structure of the steel with electrical current, plus adding a foreign metal to that steel you are welding.

Someone could have put Locktite in the dovetail of the sight too.  A  little heat on the sight & barrel is not going to hurt the barrel, but it could mess up your bluing or browning.

[Don Getz]

Many years ago I received a barrel from a guy well known on the chunk gun range.   He had an octagon to round barrel
and proceeded to "weld" underlugs onto it.   Not only were the underlugs huge and ugly, but the barrel was bent like a
banana.   He had basically turned it into scrap   No way to fix it..............Don

[JTR]

Heat can do amazing things, both good and bad, being bad as in the barrel Don mentioned.

On the other hand, although nothing to do about gun barrels, one big fishing boat I worked on long ago had the topping cable for the boom break. The end of the boom had a less than gently landing on the fishing net, and the 24" diameter boom bent down like a bannana about 2 feet. No kink, just a smooth bend about 8 feet long. We put into Samoa for repairs, and a little Korean guy showed up the the most gigantic Oxy/Acy rosebud I'd ever seen, the head part about 8" in diameter. After setting up, he proceded to heat the top of the boom at the bent section, then cool it with a hose, and after about two days, the boom was again as straight as an arrow. After welding on a huge strongback, we set back out to sea and never had a bit of problem with the boom repair.

As for the barrel discussed here I agree with making it into pistol barrels, count it a lessen learned and move on.

John

[Dphariss]

Well fellas this leads me to a question. But keep in mind I probably know less about this stuff than anyone . If heat is so bad on a barrel then is damage done when ribs are soldered to a hawken?
I have a Colerain tapered 58 that I can't seem to drive out the rear sight I want too replace. I have bent a few bronze drifts and it didn't budge. I have soaked it in Kroil and tapped it with a steel drift and still. I'm suspecting its soldered in place. And I was going to heat it slightly and try again but this thread has me questioning what to do next.
Please bear with my ignorance.

The sight is probably rusted in place and/or was put in too tight. Tight fits can almost cold weld themselves over time.
Heat the barrel to 400 degrees or so at the sight a propane torch will do it. Have someone touch an ice cube to the sight for a couple seconds then whack it with a good sized hammer and a brass drift.
This technique is  supposition but its what I would try.
If Loc-tited or epoxied 400 should break it loose.

Heating a barrel as for soldering is far different than heating with an electric welder.  The welder melts the steel at the point of the arc and the rapid heat and cool put a LOT of stress on the steel and it will warp and crawl etc etc.
Soft solder and even silver solder and brazing has been used for a very long time on gun barrels so this is fairly safe. In any case 300-500 degree soft solder is not likely to cause a problem.
Dan

[tbailey]

Thanks for the advise. I don't trust the barrel. I think the under lug dove tail is cut to deep. I did see the barrel acer posted and I think that will happen to this barrel, don't want a Friend or anyone to get hurt.  Pistol barrel sounds real good!

Thanks

T.Bailey

[Acer Saccharum]

That blowout was caused by driver inattention, not any problem with dovetails too deep. It was fortunate that the dovetail was there, as it gave the barrel a place to split--- up, not sideways.

The dovetail was deeper than I'd cut one now, but that gun was built over ten years ago.

Tom

[doulos]

Thanks guys.  I soaked it again in Kroil and tried it again and it came out. It was rusted in there. Kroil is a pretty good penetrating oil.

[Dphariss]

That blowout was caused by driver inattention, not any problem with dovetails too deep. It was fortunate that the dovetail was there, as it gave the barrel a place to split--- up, not sideways.

The dovetail was deeper than I'd cut one now, but that gun was built over ten years ago.

Tom

I have seen photos of a barrel that failed right in the bottom of the dovetail and only there. This was a factory made. Either a TC or one of the TC copies IIRC.
So it has happened.
In  the 1970s and early 80s there were a lot of reports of barrel failures. The Buckskin Report would print these accounts. No other magazines would do this on a regular basis because it can affect advertising.
Barrels burst, some due to improper loading, some for no apparent reason. People were hurt. But the barrel/gun makers are sheltered by the fact that all MLs are shooting "handloads" and its easy to blame the person who loads the gun and create reasonable doubt. It has worked well for the industry.

Dan