List of Kit Makers?

[warren5421]

Is there a list of kit makers from bare bones kits to almost finished to shooting stage?  Don't think I could do a bare bones kit but would like to look at several different kit makers.  I have looked at a few and Kibler looks like the only one I think I can build.

[Daryl]

I'm in the same boat, Warren.

[T*O*F]

I have looked at a few and Kibler looks like the only one I think I can build.

Then that's the one you should buy.  All others, bar none, are more difficult.  Your only other option is to buy an "in the white" rifle from someone like Jackie Brown or Jack Garner.  These are completely assembled guns, using quality parts, that only require you to do the wood and metal finishing.

[BrianS]

Probably the best place to see what kits are out there would be Track of the Wolf and Log Cabin Shop. That should cover the bulk of the “lower-end” kits. Then check Chambers and Kibler. Both offer great kits with Kibler requiring basically fine-tuning and finishing. If that’s your desire, I’d spend that money over the lower-end kits. You’ll end up with a much nicer, and better shooting, rifle.

[WadePatton]

Assembling and finishing a Kibler, or even disassembling and finishing an "in the white" gun will very likely let you know if you want to tackle anything more 

Good luck with whichever you choose.

[DavidC]

Do we have a stickied page that lists the websites of different craftsman? If not I feel we should create such a list.

We all know the big boys like track of the wolf or Dixie gun works but what about small , niche makers like that polish fellow who makes period matchlocks and snaphaunces and is only listed on an obscure Facebook marketplace page?

Is there some way we can create such an index?

[WadePatton]

I'll offer some notes for the kit-considering folks here (know that none of this applies to Jim Kibler's offerings, but only the "other" kits):

Such a list of sources might should also have a link to many of the discussions here about fixing errors in typical kits.  We have all sorts of "nightmare" issues discussed here.  It usually revolves around pre-inlets that don't line up properly and must be corrected. The typical kit needs an experienced eye to go over it before a noob just dives in an pokes it full of parts and thinks it's done.  Sometimes that is adequate but judging by the responses I've read over the years, it's a real $#@* shoot.

My general take on them is to _never_ get one with a lock inlet.  Pre-shaped with barrel in channel and RR hole drilled is all you really want (many pro-builders start with profiled blank (no contours) and barrel/rr let in only). That way the lock and triggers can go where they need to be for architecture and function (and there'll likely be excess wood on it).

Also if you've not yet noticed, that pretty much all "SMR" or TN kits are routinely sold with a lock type that was practically never used BITD on Southern guns. Don't make the mistake of buying those kits without swapping the lock to an English one if you want a truly Southern looking replica. And don't let them inlet it.

Clay Smith sells some kits.  Most of the "small guy" suppliers are focused in just a few areas, so knowing exactly what sort of gun, or close to it, may help you find the right folks to let you know who has what.

[Dphariss]

I have had a supposedly pretty good kit by a big name supplier that after sending back 2-3 stocks finally gave up and made a lock plate to fit the over sized inlet and the problems varied with each stock. The supplier was getting the stocks from a third party and just took what ever he sent. I did a fowler from the same place and it was OK.  I seldom do kits at least until Kibler’s came on the market. Now I have done  a Kibler SMR and am finish sanding a Colonial. Neither have any problems. The SMR is less work being less complex.

[DavidC]

I would like to see a list of merchants for kits AND components. I see a lot of questions about locks that skirt the borders of an "American" flintlock but are still of interest to people who support muzzleloaders and this forum.

I'm not talking 8000$ custom Lorenzoni assembly made by a hobby machinist but matchlocks or miquelets made in small batches akin to Laubach's locks,

It would be nice to see a list of sellers of things like gunstocks (Ron Scott and more), castings (Mike Brooks for those with patience), and then services like engraving.

I agree on the kit stuff you said. I like having a collection of stuff available so I'm not tracking down individual components but those barrel channels are more trouble than they're worth.

[bptactical]

I think a listing according to styles would be appropriate-
Colonial
Revolution
Southern
Hawken
Etc....

[Cory Joe Stewart]

When I first started getting in to building and doing my research, that research also included suppliers.  By being on this forum any amount of time you quickly pick up who does what.  Certain components come from certain suppliers and you just learn in it.  The same with kits.  I will use one example, for me the only real accurate Southern Mountain Rifle "kit" is the Jim Kibler kit.  Now that being said you can also get a good quality parts set for a Gillespie Rifle from Dennis Glazener, but most would not consider those a "kit."  So if it is an authentic Southern Mountain Rifle "kit" you seek, there you are. 

To say Colonial Rifles opens up a bit bigger can of worms. Certainly you have the Kibler Colonial Kit and you have Jim Chambers as well.  If it is a trade style gun you want, you go to Clay Smith.  If you want a Colonial era Fowler then you are going to go to Jim Chambers Flintlocks or Clay Smith again. 

I have built guns from Clay Smith Kits, Kibler Kits and Chambers Kit and can say they I really do not think the quality is that much different.  The level of work you need to do may be different.  I found that the Kibler kit was almost ready to finish.  The Smith Kits and the Chambers Kits require some more fitting on all parts.  (I have worked with other kits for other suppliers but would not recommend them)

My first build I had Dave Keck inlet a barrel for me, so if that is what you are the most intimidated by that can be taken care of. 

I will say this.  When I first started, what intimidated me the most was the metal work. Drilling holes, dovetails, shaping etc.  I was most interested in the wood working, since that was my background.  Most kits leave less word working to do, but all of the tricky drill of the metal parts. 

Cory Joe

[T*O*F]

Back when the WWW first became available, I had a website on AOL when they provided that service.  It was called the "Sutler's Page and had business listings of all merchants who were web-enabled at the time.  I had over 100 merchants listed.  Most found me thru the primitive search engines at the time and contacted me asking for a listing.  I required them to send me a short synopsis of their products or services, which I posted to my site.  I also had a site called the "Virtual Trade Blanket" which allowed guys to submit their items for sale.  Both of these sites were the 1st of their kind and were provided free of charge.

It was almost a full time job to maintain.  There was no forum type software available and I had to hand code every entry.  To establish such a listing today would still be tons of work to maintain, even with the software available now.

[Ezra]

Insofar as getting a stock blank inletted for a barrel and the ramrod hole drilled, my go to guy has always been Dave Rase of Washington state.  His work is excellent and I think would a great idea to make it illegal for these exceedingly skilled gentlemen (Rase, Allen Martin, Jim Chambers, Jim Kibler, Clay Smith, Brad & Shane Emig, et al, ad nauseum) to get sick or age. 

Ez

[warren5421]

What I would like is a rifle topical of southern Ohio along the river, my fokes came from Pennsylvania to Virginia (West Virginia) to Kentucky to Southern Ohio stopping in Portsmouth, Ohio about 120 miles east of Cincinnati up the river. 

What I am looking at is the Kibler as it looks the easiest to finish and it sounds like it will shoot good. 

Is there a maker out there that makes a flit rifle more in the style I would like that isn't going to cost like a new Porsche?

[DavidC]

Yes, you! 

[Bob Gerard]

My first ever kit was from Pecatonica River about 35 years ago. They were about the only source I used for many stocks and component parts. There wasn't internet than and I wasn't familiar with the BP Kit-building world, though knew about Dixie and Nave Arms.
Besides Pecatonica, I have made a Dragoon pommel pistol from Muzzleloader Builder's Supply, and rifles from Kibler (eleven of them) and most recently a Clay Smith fusil.
As everyone knows, the Kibler is in a kit-class of it's own.
I think the others were/are pretty much similar in the quality of parts and the stocks. (I have yet to build Clay's but it also looks rather straight forward).
Regarding pre-cut lock mortises, I have been pretty lucky I suppose in that all but one instance (a Tennessee Classic from Pecatonica) were just about on the mark and lined-up nicely with touch-hole placements. The Tennessee barrel had to be moved forward about a quarter inch to line-up but it turned out just fine.
I suppose my biggest pet-peeve is how the ramrod holes usually intersect with the forward lock bolt. It's cleared on two Pecatonica kits so far (out of seven).

[DavidC]

It was almost a full time job to maintain.  There was no forum type software available and I had to hand code every entry.  To establish such a listing today would still be tons of work to maintain, even with the software available now.

Sure, that sounds like it was work,but creating a stickied thread with a list of merchants that is updated with user recommendations as they come in and having them removed as users report them defunct is hardly comparable.

Does this idea seem like it has merit? Try to picture yourself as under 5 years into this hobby and still a full time working and family man without the same time you old  pensioners have at your disposal 

[ibogle]

Would this help? https://americanlongrifles.org/Web_links_frame.htm

[Bob Gerard]

It was almost a full time job to maintain.  There was no forum type software available and I had to hand code every entry.  To establish such a listing today would still be tons of work to maintain, even with the software available now.

Sure, that sounds like it was work,but creating a stickied thread with a list of merchants that is updated with user recommendations as they come in and having them removed as users report them defunct is hardly comparable.

Does this idea seem like it has merit? Try to picture yourself as under 5 years into this hobby and still a full time working and family man without the same time you old  pensioners have at your disposal 

"Try to picture yourself as under 5 years into this hobby and still a full time working and family man without the same time you old  pensioners have at your disposal"?
Well bless your heart. Maybe you should do your own research like the "old pensioners" did and learn something.
Or do you want everything handed to you? 

[WadePatton]

What I would like is a rifle topical of southern Ohio along the river, my fokes came from Pennsylvania to Virginia (West Virginia) to Kentucky to Southern Ohio stopping in Portsmouth, Ohio...

Is there a maker out there that makes a flit rifle more in the style I would like

Methinks Ohio is late for flint guns, if you want a flinter with "plausible possibility" to your family history I'd pick somewhere further East--Like PA or WV/Va, maybe KY.  But I could be wrong. 

[rich pierce]

It’s not going to be very practical to make and maintain an up to date list of gun kit suppliers. Many are small outfits.
Here’s a list: Chambers, Kibler, Track of the Wolf, Pecatonica, Hawken Shop, Dunlap, Knob Mountain, Clay Smith, Sitting Fox, The Rifle Shoppe, and Caywood. It can help to check out a magazine sometime like Muzzle Blasts or Muzzleloader. They are good sources. Of course they cost money.

If somebody wants an Ohio or Bedford or Marshall rifle or whatever, go check out those outfits and see what they have in stock.

It surprises me that members cannot look around or contact suppliers but want all up to date information on everything consolidated here online.

We are not going to have any kind of rate the suppliers situation. So much of ratings depends on the user. Some folks find a parts set consisting of a blank with an inletted barrel and drilled ramrod hole about as easy as it gets and others find a CNC’d kit a tough build that when completed qualifies them as a gunsmith. And this likely changes over time and with experience with each individual. And we don’t want folks (as they so often do) try to solve their issues here instead of simply calling their supplier.

Other views and opinions are welcome.

[Mike Brooks]

They got this thing called google now.

[T*O*F]

Try to picture yourself as under 5 years into this hobby and still a full time working and family man without the same time you old  pensioners have at your disposal 

As a matter of fact, it was 30 years ago.  I owned 2 businesses, worked 5-1/2 days a week, had 2 kids, was a Scoutmaster and Training Chairman for the council, was an officer in the Lions Club, Director of the I&M Canal Education group and on the Rendezvous steering committee, and maintained the Muzzleloading Mailing list.

Most of the people I dealt with said they didn't have the time to be a volunteer, and sat around the house at night drinking beer and watching TV.  Self motivation and time management are skills sorely lacking today, but found in all succesful people.

[DavidC]

If a skill disappears on such a scale it was a failure of installment in the next generation.

Mike, Google is not showing me that polish fellow and his high quality wheellocks. Maybe I'm not motivating it correctly.

I don't see a list of suppliers being an issue so long as people were satisfied with updates not being immediate. It makes it easier to support an artisan if you can find him with more than 2 degrees of separation.

[smart dog]

Hi Guys,
What are you guys waiting for?  Someone post a thread beginning a list. Get to work on a list or are you waiting for someone else to do all that work?   List suppliers like Track of the Wolf and their contact information and any notes about what they sell.  Don't forget that we have members in other countries so maybe they could do some research and provide a list of their local suppliers and contact information.  As far as builders go, builders might post their own contact information, their experience, and styles they focus on, if they build kits and so on.   

dave