Rev War horn sold,,, with new Disturbing and cautionary info

[JTR]

A maybe great Rev War horn sold today on, of all places,,,  ebay.
Micah Hoit -  His Horn - Brookline Fort - 1775

Did anyone here buy it?

John

[YANKEEDROIE]

HI john , it was not me and I sure would like to know what it went for and when it sold.
joe

[G. Elsenbeck]

Well it wasn't me either.  Hopefully it was the genuine article and not another scam.  I'm surprised it wasn't in an auction house instead of ebay. 
Gary

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270466215963&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[smokinbuck]

I also looked at it. It seemed to me to be in awfully good condition for it's age. Very little discoloration or deterioration of the horn itself and the scrim was very sharp and clear???
Mark

[Randy Hedden]

A maybe great Rev War horn sold today on, of all places,,,  ebay.
Micah Hoit -  His Horn - Brookline Fort - 1775
John

John,

When you said "maybe great horn" are you thinking it might not be authentic??

Randy Hedden

[Tanselman]

The horn went for $6587. It looked very good, both body and carving, but the lack of dirt, crud or discoloration in tight areas made me nervous about it, as did almost no visible small scratches. The engrailment was the same color as the body of the horn and very clean, no trapped dirt in the small corners, and the ring on the spout had absolutely no residue accumulated underneath where it met the horn body. Even the butt plug, while looking good with decent color, had no visible dirt trapped in the fine edge/joint line between the plug and overlapping horn.

The horn may have been good, but whenever I see anything that causes suspicions for a horn of that age, I think it's probably wise to pass on it and wait for the next one. Horns are tricky items to judge when using only internet pictures, rather than having it in hand. Simply being able to feel the surface of the horn and see how light reflects off of it, are important checks that can't be done by photos. I also get nervous when the seller states clearly in his description that he does not know if it is original or a reproduction, so he is legally "off the hook" for any refund if the horn is found to be modern. And I think he worded it carefully so that there is no return, since he thought it was such a great horn he didn't want to see it get diminished by being "passed around" too much. Great looking horn, almost too good surface-wise, with some warning flags in the write-up. That old addage "if it looks too good to be true.... " needs to be kept in mind. Maybe someone got lucky on this one, but someone might also have an expensive headache in a couple of weeks.  Shelby Gallien

[JTR]

That was an interesting horn, to say the least!

And I have to admit, that if it was the real deal, I was pretty interested in getting it.

But my first thought was yeah, it’s a fake! It’s on ebay with a long convoluted description; It belonged to a big time collector, but the collectors name would not be given. It might be authentic, but the seller couldn’t promise that. And there would be no inspection period. Lot’s of red flags there! Typical ebay scam for sure!

But, if you digest the description; The seller inherited the horn and other items from her dad, and the dialog  after the description of the horn its self was basically saying this is what I have, but that’s about all I know. And that basically had a ring of truth to it to me,,,, as I can imagine my daughters confusion sorting through my stuff after I croak, since I don’t have anything written down as to what’s what. I know for a fact she won’t know the difference in value between a good York Co screw-tip and a plain jane horn, except one is a bit fancier than the other. So in that respect, I think the seller was being honest. Her “I can’t promise it’s original” comment evidently was in response to an ebayers comment to her that the horn might be a reproduction.

As for the horn; True, it maybe looks too good. The scrimshaw is still pretty sharp and crisp, and the horn looks unused for the most part.  And it has two names on it, Micah Hoit in the main inscription, then Samuel Hoit in a smaller square on the back side, but both dated 1775. Usually two named horns are father/son or other relations hand-me-downs, and if dated, usually a generation or two apart. Then the Royal Artillery scene,,, hmmm, what’s that all about? Then it has ships on it, but also has a couple deer in a hunting scene, which seems to make the theme of the horn confusing.
Being undecided, I asked the seller for some close pics of various areas, which she sent. Two of those pictures she later posted with the horns listing. What I was looking for, as were you guys, is was this thing scrimmed with a dremel tool, or was it cut with a blade?

I also asked her to describe the look and feel of the scrimmed lines. As you guys know, old horn tend to de-laminate along these lines, and also sort of pucker up. Her answer seemed to indicate that this was in fact the way they were. If you look at the close-up pic showing the letters ‘ip of w’, it has the de-laminations and puckering on the rule line at the top of the letter f, and to its left, as well as above the lettering.

I also googled the Hoit names, and there is information on both Micah and Samuel and their participation in the war. But even though they were real guys, that doesn’t preclude the horn from being a fake.

Ideally, you want a horn in hand when considering buying it, and I’ve had some really great horns in my mitts, and some good fakes as well, but I’m still far from any sort of horn expert. And as Shelby points out, pictures just can’t convey the same information, but since I couldn’t see this one in person, I sent these pics off to 4 guys for their opinions. Two opined it might well be authentic,,, and two thought it probably a fake!?!?!?!?!

Yikes! What to do? From the bidding, at $2100 the morning before it closed, it seemed the horn was going to sell on the cheap side. If it was the real deal, it would be a great buy! If it was a fake, it would be an expensive mistake! Yikes again, I scratched my head, I looked at the pics again, I checked my bank account and thought about the new kitchen appliances I’ve been planning to buy.

In the end, I thought what the heck, nothing ventured nothing gained, and the old frig Is still working.
So with a minute to go on the auction, I submitted a proxy bid amount that I felt should be enough to win it. And I was the high bidder for several long seconds, but at the close, ended up being the first looser!

So yeah, I’m disappointed a bit, but I hope for the guy that won it, that’s it’s the real deal.

And for me, it looks like I’ll be buying new appliances.

Sorry this post is soooo long, but this was an intriguing horn, and I’d really like to hear your opinions on it.

John

         

[Brian]

I don't know why John - but I have a gut feeling you might be glad you missed this one.  No point preaching to the choir or repeating what has already been said, but I will reiterate one comment - "an awful lot of red flags".  It would sure be interesting to have some of the experts on this site examine it and give an opinion.  There are a number of people here (not me) who could tell for sure.

[G. Elsenbeck]

John, I'm sure the missus will be very happy with new appliances instead of having to explain to her a horn caught my eye.  Like you said, there was far too many red flags on this one.  One of the best methods a con gets you to 'bite' is to make it as believable as possible.  Far too many reasons in a far too long description and 'explanation' to not walk away, run fast away. 
Why pray tell NOT to let anyone see this if it's on the level?  Why are 'trusty' auction houses NOT honest?  Perhaps this avenue has already been tried so let me make up a good story on ebay?  Why would a perfectly, genuinely antique item be on ebay and not in Sotheby's? 
These are the questions potential bidders need to ask instead ask questions that the con is steering you to, e.g., colors, sizes, etc which are based now on emotions.  Key to every con, emotion, not facts.  Just my opinion. 
And the seller only has 6 ebay transactions.  Imagine that.
Gary

[JTR]

Brian, Gary,
Like I said, I'm only disappointed a Bit. Had I won it, it would have been on the next bid increment, $2200 or something like that.
Had I had to pay my full proxy bid amount, I'd be a good bit nervous!

And the only reason I can sometimes take a wild flyer at something is that there is no Missus to have to explain too! So I even get to pick out my own kitchen appliances!

John

[Randy Hedden]

When I first looked at the horn I was suspect of it's origins.  Like others, it looked to pristine to me.  It was a two person horn which would most likely carry two different dates of ownership like for a father and son or F&I war era and Rev War era, but both dates were 1775??  We might assume that the original owner, Micah Hoit might have been killed and Samuel Hoit took the horn for his own??  However, a search for Micah Hoit shows that he was still in the service of his country in 1776 and later and he shows up in the 1790 census.  Makes me wonder how Samuel Hoit came into possession of the horn??

I was stumped for a moment by all the cannons and the British battle flag  under the words, "The Royal Artilery".  Fort Brookline was part of the American defenses ringing Boston and across the Charles River from Boston. Other forts across from Boston included Roxbury and Cambridge.  Fort Brookline was not really a fort, but consisted of earthworks and trenches.  It was only attacked once by the British in July of 1775.  The British rowed two floating artillery batteries into the Charles River and bombarded Fort Brookline all night with 12, twenty four pound cannons.  The American troops never fired a shot during the attack. They just hunkered down in the trenches with all fires and lights out and the British cannons fired wide with every shot.  There were apparently no casualties on either side.  The part of the horn that shows cannons is labeled "The Royal Artilery".  Perhaps the British floating artillery batteries are what is represented by the cannon on the horn?  I can not see any other explanation for "The Royal Artilery" and the British battle flag to be on an American horn.  To me this explains the cannons, "The Royal Artilery" and the British battle flag showing up on an American horn.

Another thing that caught my attention, but may not mean anything is the fact that whoever scrimshawed the horn used the archaic "s" that looked like an "f" in one place, but used a normal "s" in a couple of other places.

Randy Hedden

[JTR]

Randy, I noticed the different uses of the s and f also. In one place he used 'A Sloop', and at another 'A Fhip of War'.
I wonder if the different usage is due to some grammar rule at the time like the present I before E, except after etc?
I know at some point they were pretty much used interchangeably, but not exactly sure when. But just for the sake of argument I'd guess 1775 was during the interchangeable years because the f gone by 1800 or so.

Also, what do you think the word after Samuel Hoit is? Tuner? Funer? Juner? And what the heck would it mean? Googling, I found a Capt. Samuel Hoit, but that word is not an abbreviation for Capt as far as I know. And might not even be the same guy.

And what do you think of the de-laminating or puckering of the horn material in the pic I mentioned. I've seen this a lot on older original horns, but am not sure it's something would happen if the horn was only several decades old?

It'd be nice if the new owner popped up here someday!

John

PS, Although he'd probably be bent out of shape at me for running the price up! 

[G. Elsenbeck]

John, yes there were grammatical rules for the ligatures.  Here's some info that will clear these up.  Confusing to us, yes, but back then everyone were used to them.  Did the engraver follow these?
Gary

http://www.orbitals.com/self/ligature/ligature.htm

[JTR]

Thanks for that Gary!
Interesting!
It'll take a bit of study, but I did notice on the examples the lordship would be spelled lordfhip. Sort of points to the word ship being correct as fhip.

John

[Randy Hedden]

Also, what do you think the word after Samuel Hoit is? Tuner? Funer? Juner? And what the heck would it mean? Googling, I found a Capt. Samuel Hoit, but that word is not an abbreviation for Capt as far as I know. And might not even be the same guy.

And what do you think of the de-laminating or puckering of the horn material in the pic I mentioned. I've seen this a lot on older original horns, but am not sure it's something would happen if the horn was only several decades old?

John

John,

I believe the word after the name Samuel Hoit is meant to be "junior", but is misspelled.  I had two emails asking what I thought of the horn and I did not see the additional pictures until after the auction was over.  I firmly believe that any de-laminating of a horn depends as much on how it was taken care of over the years as well as the age of the horn.  I also believe that de-lamination may occur faster depending on how the horn was worked down to size.  A horn that is scraped from tip to butt should de-laminate slower than a horn scraped from butt to tip. 

I have a personal horn that I made with no scrimshaw.  It is approximately 25 years old and has seen a rough life as my personal horn.  I did nothing to protect the horn except an initial coat of carnuba paste wax.  Until about 5 years ago this horn was carried to rendezvous and treks into the woods 29 times each year as well as taken to 12 monthly shoots each year.  It has been subjected to extremes of temperature, both hot and cold, and has been soaking wet more times than I would have liked because when the horn was soaking wet I was also soaking wet.  After only 25 years of not having been given any particular care, the horn has some surface de-lamination going on so I would say that a horn only a couple of decades old can have the start of de-lamination.

I also think that it depends on the type of horn the powder horn was made from.  The great majority of double twist F&I and Rev War powder horns were made from steer horns imported from the various Spanish colonies and territories.  Tons of steer hides were imported to the U.S. during the 18th century for the making of all kinds of leather products.  The horns associated with the hides were shipped with the hides for no extra cost, meaning virtually free horns.  Steer horns often suffer from de-lamination while scraping down the horn even after the initial surface roughness has been removed.  I am thinking that steer horns may de-laminate more and faster then other horns from different breeds of cattle.  The very worst horn for de-laminating is bison/buffalo horns.

Randy Hedden 

[Tanselman]

Randy, I was once told by Roland Cadle that most high quality early horns were made from right- handed horns. I've studied most of the known Tansel horns, and can attest that the earlier Kentucky pieces made by the father, Francis, were virtually all made from right handed horns. The sons were not so selective, and became even less so when they got to Indiana. In Indiana left and right handed horns were used almost equally.

This early F&I horn we are discussing looks like a left-handed horn, rather than the expected right-handed type.  What's your experience with fine early horns, and whether a preponderance of them were right handed, or is that not really the case?  Shelby Gallien

[JTR]

Thanks Randy,
For whatever it's worth, it looks like the proper grammar (Garys link) was used by the maker.
fhip is correct.
Huntfman is correct.
Sloop is correct with a capital S, as is September, etc.

And I agree the de-laminations can hurried by the type of use the horn has had. However most of the F&I war and Rev war fancy scrimmed horns that I've seen seem to be in pretty good almost unused condition. It wouldn't be much of a guess to believe the horns were kept as mementos of the event, and not actually used much.

One this one I guess we'll probably never know for sure,,,, unless it pops up at some dealers or auction site with a big hefty price. 

Interesting discussion and I learned a lot!

John

[Randy Hedden]

Randy, I was once told by Roland Cadle that most high quality early horns were made from right- handed horns. I've studied most of the known Tansel horns, and can attest that the earlier Kentucky pieces made by the father, Francis, were virtually all made from right handed horns. The sons were not so selective, and became even less so when they got to Indiana. In Indiana left and right handed horns were used almost equally. 

This early F&I horn we are discussing looks like a left-handed horn, rather than the expected right-handed type.  What's your experience with fine early horns, and whether a preponderance of them were right handed, or is that not really the case?  Shelby Gallien

Shelby,

I think that 18th century horn makers, who made the typical F&I style double twist powder horns, didn't differentiate between right side and left side horns when it came to raw unworked horns.  I imagine I have seen and handled a couple of hundred such horns and have 4 or 5 reference books on powder horns.  I don't know what Roland was referring to as high quality powder horns?? When it comes to all F&I style scrimshawed powder horns, I am not sure I would say a preponderance of these horns were made from right side horns for right side carry powder horns, but if someone were to state that a majority of 18th century powder horns were made for wear on the right side I would certainly agree.  However, even though a majority of these type horns were right side horns made for right side carry, I believe we could show many of what we would call a left side horn made into a right side carry powder horn as well as several powder horns that were made from left side horns for left side carry powder horns and even some powder horns made from right side horns for left side carry powder horns.  From looking at the pictures in the Ebay auction, it appears to me that this horn started out as a right side horn and was made into a left side carry horn.  The natural double twist of the Ebay horn looks like a real good candidate for a right side carry horn.  If this horn was worn on the left side the throat and spout area of the horn would be sticking out away from the body instead of being tucked in close to the body.  Because this horn was made into a left side carry horn, going from the position of the lip of the horn, it would then not make a good right side carry powder horn either.  It looks like it wouldn't carry well on either side.

If we just look at horns made by professional horners or in horn factories, they apparently turned out mostly right side carry powder horns.  These craftsmen would have had a large readily available supply of raw horns and could pick and choose raw horns for making powder horns.  I believe they would do as I have done for many years.  I mostly make right side carry powder horns and use the left side horns for making other horn products, like rum or salt horns, combs, ink wells, etc.  Now consider powder horns made on the spot at various forts.  The horn makers  "out in the field" obviously wouldn't have as many raw horns to work from and just made a right or left side carry powder horn from the limited amount of horns available to him. The prolific Pointed Tree Carver comes to mind.  Almost all of the powder horn reference books show some left side horns made into right side carry horns and some right side horns made into left side carry powder horns. On pages 22-23 of Jim Dresslar's horn book we see a pointed tree carver horn that appears to me to be a left side horn made into a right side carry powder horn.  The Patt Walsh horn, the one with the glass bottle butt plug, on pages 24-25 of Dresslar's book is definitely a left side carry powder horn.  The Nathaniel Bartlett horn on page 38 of Dresslar's book is another right side horn made into a left side carry powder horn.  Just paging through Guthman's horn book I see much the same thing.  Every third or fourth horn is something other than right side horns made into right side carry powder horns.  I am beginning to think that Roland was talking about the very fine horns that were made as "memory" or commemorative horns after the fact while I am talking about any/all scrimshawed powder horn of the period.  It may be that Roland would not even consider the Ebay horn as a high quality fine powder horn??

Randy Hedden



 

[JTR]

I don't know the rules here regarding what has happened to me, but present it because I'd guess that some of you shop ebay as I do.

As you know, I bid on that horn and lost.
Two days ago I received an email, the subject, the just sold horn.
The email was on a ebay looking page, and basically said the deal had fallen through with the winner of the auction.
It went on to say, that under ebay rules, as next highest bidder, I was being given a 'second chance' offer to purchase the horn.
Cool! Ya, sure! A few things caught me as unusual.
The guy sending the message wasn't the same name as the original seller.
The "Location" on the ebay page was, NC, and then a name ending in Americka.
The guy said to reply to him with a supplied email address, and not to reply through ebay.
Alarm bells were ringing!

So, I googled the "Location", and it came up as a German website that distrubited world wide weather information from a center in North Carolina.
Now alarm bells were really clanging! The guy had to be a scammer!
So I decided to play around, and answered him.
To make a long story short, the guy replied back, saying he would sell the horn to me for $6487, I would have a 14 day money back inspection period,, and, free shipping.

My last reply to him (There were several emails back and forth) was I wanted a picture of the scrimmed hunter and two deer scene, with the horn laying on a newspaper from his home town, and showing the date (would be yesterdays date).

In the mean time I wrote to the original seller. She replied quickly that the horn had indeed sold, and had in fact been delivered to the new owner. She has since reported the scammer to ebay, along with the emnails the scammer sent to me, for whatever good it will do. I don't believe the scam was in any way related to the original seller.

I haven't heard from the scammer since my picture request... Although I did send him an email yesterday afternoon asking him please supply the picture, as I was ready to send him the money as soon as I received the picture! 
Still no reply!

I've heard about scammers, but this is the first time someone has tried to scam me.
Somehow this guy got my ebay user name. Somehow he got my email address. This info isn't shown on ebay auctions.

Be careful, and don't let it happen to you!!!

John

[G. Elsenbeck]

John, way to react to 'alarm bells'.  As you know,  true 'second chance offers' only come from Ebay.  Ebay will appear in the from section and to prove this go to your Ebay inbox.  Same thing will be there.  If the 'from' name is anyone else, its a scam. 
As far as your email, could be a thousand ways they got that from.  Perhaps a new member joined recently from Germany or NC and reads the forum?  I can get your email address by clicking on your name and you likeways can get mine.  However, what I've done is have a separate email address for ebay and keep my 'personal' ones separate. 
Good luck on your hunt for the 'dream horn'. 
Gary

[Randy Hedden]

I have had two different??? scammers try to pull a scam on items I had listed on the Contemporary Longrifles Association for sale pages.

You just have to be on your toes,

Randy Hedden

[Fullstock longrifle]

I had two scam second chance offers allegedly from Ebay a few years ago, both on expensive items.  I thought they had fixed that problem.  I wonder how safe it is to reply to the scammers emails, can they put a tracking cookie on your computer, or worse yet, a virus?

Anyhow, thanks for the heads up John.

Frank