Author Topic: My first build and muzzleloader, inspired by Herb and JB (Read 15105 times)

HighUintas · « **Reply #50 on:** April 12, 2022, 05:42:37 PM »

I made some more progress. I've got the tang shaped, bent, and inletted.

Line from the top of the breach down to the wrist to give it a more immediate curve downward. A profile now looks correct in that area, where it didn't before.

I cut the Tang to length, having it terminate just before the nose of the comb. This makes it about 5.75 in Long. That's longer than the beckwourth rifle, but is is hidden behind a wrist wrap and I want to make my wrist as strong as possible; I also plan to bolt through the end of the Tang into the trigger plate.

I then shaped the end of the Tang to round by scribing a circular line with a compass meeting the outer edges of the tang. I then filed it round using my scribe line as a guide. I believe the Beckwourth rifles Tang is flat at the end, but once again that one is hidden under a wrist wrap and I wanted this one to be round.

I bent the tank cold using what seems to be the most common method, putting the Tang into my vise and then using the barrel as a handle to bend it. I did quite a few series of bend and check alignment to get it pretty close to my line.

Then inletted the tang. I sat the breach bolster on top of the stock on the center line with the muzzle and down in the channel. I marked with a sharp pencil around the edges of the bolster, stabbed in just inside the line, and started removing wood. Once I got pretty close to the point of having the Tang rest on top of the stock, I used some color transfer to even up the sides of my mortise and ensure that it was centered with the barrel channel. Once the Tang was resting on the stock, I used a sharp pencil to outline the tang and then stabbed in along the insides of those lines and started removing that wood until I was close to final depth. Then started using color transfer on the bottom of the barrel near the breach and the bottom of the tang and the breech area and breech bolster area. Once I got close I started checking the contact between the barrel breach and rear surface of the breach plug bolster try to keep that contact pretty even across the back.

I'm now at final depth as indicated by the contact between the barrel and the barrel channel. There is no contact that I can see at the bottom of the reach plug bolster and the very forward part of the Tang mortise because I realized I was tapping on my barrel too hard with my mallet and it was allowing the tang and barrel to bend just enough to where I would get false contact and those two points and I ended up removing too much material. But, I have good contact everywhere else. And I think my contact is pretty good between my breach and the recoiling surface of the stock.

Do you see any reason to continue going to get better contact anywhere?

Please ignore the blue. That stuff isn't coming off, unfortunately.

Dphariss · « **Reply #51 on:** April 12, 2022, 06:27:46 PM »

As some have stated
Be careful with whatever guides the RR drill. On straight barrels it need to be parallel with the barrel. If parallel with the taper of a tapered barrel then the drill will run low.
In my experience the only RR drills that actually run where they are pointed are the gun drill type. The others, not so much. If you use a common twist drill that is easily flexed and cuts on the sides or a spade type it will at some point cause “issues”. These designes are not good for deep holes. There is a reason the gundrill is used to drill gun barrels.
I clamp the drill in the RR groove with grooved wood blocks.
Only drill about 1/2-3/4” then clear the chips.

Dphariss · « **Reply #52 on:** April 12, 2022, 06:47:38 PM »

The Beckwourth rifle looks like a Tennessee or Kentucky “bear rifle” to me. Though it could have been made in Missouri. Its not a Hawken. Both the Hawken brothers were very well trained and experienced by the time Jake arrived in St Louis. Both were from a gunsmithing family and both had worked at Harpers Ferry. They knew how to forge weld and braze. And it most likely was flint and the lock was simply replaced when the drum was installed. And either it was really well cared for or it as not shot a lot as a percussion. The early caps were really hard on metal parts and there is little cap erosion on or around the drum. They could eat the iron away without even any apparent rusting.
A great many such rifles as well as typical Kentuckys of all eras went west. Some were large enough caliber, some were not. And the Hawken brothers, if I am properly informed, did not call them Plains rifles. They were “mountain rifles”. “Plains rifle” nomenclature is, IMO, a modern construct.

borderdogs · « **Reply #53 on:** April 12, 2022, 07:00:30 PM »

HU,
From the profile picture of your stock it looks like you haven't cut the stock to the profile line on your stock. On the last picture it looks like you cut to the profile line and seated the tang/barrel in place. It looks good from what I see.
Rob

HighUintas · « **Reply #54 on:** April 12, 2022, 08:02:25 PM »

Quote from: Dphariss on April 12, 2022, 06:47:38 PM

The Beckwourth rifle looks like a Tennessee or Kentucky “bear rifle” to me. Though it could have been made in Missouri. Its not a Hawken. Both the Hawken brothers were very well trained and experienced by the time Jake arrived in St Louis. Both were from a gunsmithing family and both had worked at Harpers Ferry. They knew how to forge weld and braze. And it most likely was flint and the lock was simply replaced when the drum was installed. And either it was really well cared for or it as not shot a lot as a percussion. The early caps were really hard on metal parts and there is little cap erosion on or around the drum. They could eat the iron away without even any apparent rusting.
A great many such rifles as well as typical Kentuckys of all eras went west. Some were large enough caliber, some were not. And the Hawken brothers, if I am properly informed, did not call them Plains rifles. They were “mountain rifles”. “Plains rifle” nomenclature is, IMO, a modern construct.

Thanks for the note on the RR drill! I recently bought a drill from MBS and it is a brad point drill with spiral flutes. I've heard I should work so long as it get the channel pointed straight and parallel and have good control such as the wood blocks. I'll be making some wood blocks as a guide and be sure to clear chips after 1/2" ish of drilling

I agree on it very likely not being Hawken built after more research. Even if it was built in their earliest years of being in STL, I don't think the quality matches what they were capable of.

I am also now dubious on it's authenticity of being Beckwourth's rifle after receiving some information regarding that. I don't think it's my place to divulge that information here though. I'm leaning towards either Missouri built or built by someone in the southern mountains.

HighUintas · « **Reply #55 on:** April 12, 2022, 08:35:41 PM »

Quote from: borderdogs on April 12, 2022, 07:00:30 PM

HU,
From the profile picture of your stock it looks like you haven't cut the stock to the profile line on your stock. On the last picture it looks like you cut to the profile line and seated the tang/barrel in place. It looks good from what I see.
Rob

Yes I forgot to mention that I cut the wrist profile down to my line prior to inletting the tang.

Thanks!

borderdogs · « **Reply #56 on:** April 12, 2022, 10:48:00 PM »

Dphariss,
I think you are right about the Plains rifle handle. Most of the rifles I have or are currently building are Hawken component parts sets but when I build them I call them "plains rifles" with Hawken rifle features since I am not doing a bench copy. Don Stith told me the light caliber rifles the Hawken's built for locals around St Louis he called a St Louis Plains rifle". But I haven't seen that used in anything from that period but I do not claim to be any kind of expert. I have studied Hawken rifles though through the years and I was fortunate enough to have handled a couple of original rifles back in the 1980's wish I could take a look at them now. To me the Beckwourth rifle doesn't seem to be Hawken built either but I have only seen the details of the rifle in pictures. But being a rifle of the period I think it is worth study even if it did not belong to Beckwourth and certainly shouldn't diminish HU's effort to recreate a reasonable copy.
Rob

Dphariss · « **Reply #57 on:** April 13, 2022, 06:02:50 AM »

Quote from: borderdogs on April 12, 2022, 10:48:00 PM

Dphariss,
I think you are right about the Plains rifle handle. Most of the rifles I have or are currently building are Hawken component parts sets but when I build them I call them "plains rifles" with Hawken rifle features since I am not doing a bench copy. Don Stith told me the light caliber rifles the Hawken's built for locals around St Louis he called a St Louis Plains rifle". But I haven't seen that used in anything from that period but I do not claim to be any kind of expert. I have studied Hawken rifles though through the years and I was fortunate enough to have handled a couple of original rifles back in the 1980's wish I could take a look at them now. To me the Beckwourth rifle doesn't seem to be Hawken built either but I have only seen the details of the rifle in pictures. But being a rifle of the period I think it is worth study even if it did not belong to Beckwourth and certainly shouldn't diminish HU's effort to recreate a reasonable copy.

Rob

Since the local market rifles were far different than the Mountain Rifles (but still better quality than the run of the mill eastern rifle of the time) I think John Baird was right in calling them “Squirrel Rifles”. I have been fortunate in the last few years of being able to examine a early-mid 1830s J&S even psrtly disassemble it. Then we got to closely examine several others at the Cody Firearms Museum. Including another J&S from the early 1830s, a heavy barreled Kentucky S Hawken and a FS S Hawken Mountain Rifle and a late S Hawken Mountain rifle half stock. The FS brass mounted long heavy Kentucky and the FS Mountain rifle were obviously stocked by the same man. And the J&S we got to pull the lock and barrel from was, I am sure, stocked by the same man as the early J&S in Cody that was owned by Archie Peterson when Baird featured it in his first book. Small details…

LynnC · « **Reply #58 on:** April 13, 2022, 04:11:50 PM »

Back to the RR drill. All my drills are home made with twist drills. I clear chips ever quarter inch of less. If you feel the slightest bind, thats when it could begin to wander. I have never had a bit come out of the wood. All went as pointed. Good luck

HighUintas · « **Reply #59 on:** April 18, 2022, 06:22:48 AM »

I'm working on getting the RR channel cut. This is a 7/16" rod and channel and I've been using my 7/16" gouge. I'm having a really hard time getting deep enough with this gouge due to the shape of the upper edges. It also doesn't actually cut quite as wide as 7/16", so I have to run along each side layout line independently to get full width. So I've been thinking of ways to remove wood quickly while keeping it straight.

I happen to have a piece of 7/16" steel, mild steel I'm fairly certain. I was thinking I would first cut along my layout lines full length to get the channel started and be able to lay the rod in. Then I'd file the end of the rod square and use the rod as a scraper.

Thoughts?

mikeyfirelock · « **Reply #60 on:** April 19, 2022, 12:12:59 AM »

I’ve done that and it works well to get the channel straight and even. You must be careful to maintain the proper course, both vertically and laterally. Layout is critical. The channel must follow the bore line and not deviate laterally. You must also make sure the channel will guide the ramrod drill at the proper depth ( or path if tapered or swamped.). On swamped barrels I have measured the barrel and calculated the ramrod channel depth ever several inches frim the top flat, and marked the stock at those points. I use calipers to check as I cut the ramrod channel to make sure I’m on course.

HighUintas · « **Reply #61 on:** April 19, 2022, 04:46:32 AM »

Quote from: mikeyfirelock on April 19, 2022, 12:12:59 AM

I’ve done that and it works well to get the channel straight and even. You must be careful to maintain the proper course, both vertically and laterally. Layout is critical. The channel must follow the bore line and not deviate laterally. You must also make sure the channel will guide the ramrod drill at the proper depth ( or path if tapered or swamped.). On swamped barrels I have measured the barrel and calculated the ramrod channel depth ever several inches frim the top flat, and marked the stock at those points. I use calipers to check as I cut the ramrod channel to make sure I’m on course.

I tested it out a bit and it works pretty well, but I can't push the rod keeping it laid down in the channel because it's just a straight rod and doesn't have a handle. I also noticed that it doesn't cut much if I don't have it at a fairly steep angle, say maybe 20° or so and that prevents the rest of the rod from guiding The cutting direction.

When you use this method, did you angle the rod up so that you could get it to cut, or did you bend the end of the rod to make a handle and be able to keep the rest of the rod down in the channel while it cuts?

HighUintas · « **Reply #62 on:** April 23, 2022, 10:06:07 AM »

Alright! I made some progress.

Cut the rest of the profile, leaving the butt and width of the forearm in place. Used a Shinto and surform to plane and square the bottom surfaces after handsawing. Then cut the RR channel with a 7/16" gouge, a 7/16" rod as a scraper, and some sandpaper wrapped on a dowel.

I've got the RR hole drilled. Hopefully, I don't need to plug and redrill it. I measured the depth near the breech and it drifted down towards the belly maybe 1/16" or so. Unfortunately, I cut nearly passed my profile line there, so my drill drifting down only leaves me with about 0.80-0.100" of wood between the hole and belly.

Is that enough wood there?

Other than that, it went smoothly. I had just a touch of drift towards the lock side but not much.

I made my wooden guide blocks and made sure they had contact with the drill rod but didn't put too much pressure on it. I used my BP 45-90 bullet lube (crisco, beeswax, lanolin) for the drill tip and it seemed to ease cutting. I think I had the drift towards the belly because I'm I didn't get the brad point on the drill in the right spot when I started. I didn't know it at the time, but that's my guess. Or my RR channel wasn't as level as I thought!

Either way, should I plug and redrill or should that really thin belly be strong enough?

Bill Raby · « **Reply #63 on:** April 23, 2022, 07:54:32 PM »

I think you will be fine with that much wood. Its great to see someone documenting a first build. Everything is looking great so far. Keep at it and have fun with it!

HighUintas · « **Reply #64 on:** April 23, 2022, 10:52:58 PM »

Thanks, Bill! Your videos have been a huge help

DavidC · « **Reply #65 on:** April 27, 2022, 08:17:24 PM »

These photos will make a great and succinct answer to future questions about drilling a ramrod hole. That looks like a good setup!

mikeyfirelock · « **Reply #66 on:** April 28, 2022, 01:58:15 PM »

You’re doin’ good ……we are all proud of you! Keep it up, and remember all the things you’ve learned on this one….for the next 20 or 30 rifles you will be building.

HighUintas · « **Reply #67 on:** April 28, 2022, 05:05:44 PM »

Thank you! I have learned a lot and I'm really enjoying it. There are some world class builders here and the information everyone shares is invaluable. Has been a huge help. Hopefully, I'll be able to start on another one shortly after I finish this one.

I've got my forestock and lock area thinned and squared close to finish width and I'm now working over my lock before inletting it. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong or missing, but trying to get the lock plate flat and of uniform finish is frustrating . I'll be happy to get it figured out

DavidC · « **Reply #68 on:** April 29, 2022, 05:38:15 PM »

Flat how? The front face only needs to be flat and we'll polished near moving surfaces but much of the inside of the plate needs to be both. Do you have a granite block gauged flat or a piece of plate glass? You can place sandpaper on plate glass and use that to sand the lock plate flat, it's how you would restore the sole of a handplane.

HighUintas · « **Reply #69 on:** April 29, 2022, 07:06:17 PM »

Quote from: DavidC on April 29, 2022, 05:38:15 PM

Flat how? The front face only needs to be flat and we'll polished near moving surfaces but much of the inside of the plate needs to be both. Do you have a granite block gauged flat or a piece of plate glass? You can place sandpaper on plate glass and use that to sand the lock plate flat, it's how you would restore the sole of a handplane.

I was only referring to the external surface of the lock plate. I was using my mill file to flatten it to remove the dips in the as cast surface, which is hard to do with a pan that isn't removable, and I kept getting deep scratches no matter how often I card my file. But I now realize it doesn't need to be completely flat, so I've moved on to wet/dry paper on a block and it's looking good 👍

I've not checked the inner surface for flatness or parts rubbing on the plate yet. I'm hoping/expecting Chambers took care of that for me

DavidC · « **Reply #70 on:** April 29, 2022, 07:17:05 PM »

Ha, never trust a lock you haven't turned yourself unless you explicitly paid for it!

The external isn't too important beyond appearance in most spots. Check out the recent guide that Rich Pierce posted in the last couple days, sounds perfect for you.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=47002.0;topicseen

HighUintas · « **Reply #71 on:** April 29, 2022, 10:41:22 PM »

Yes I dug that one up after I started on my lock plate and asked about my issue there. I do plan to check the inner plate flatness and potential for rubbing but haven't done so yet

HighUintas · « **Reply #72 on:** May 19, 2022, 10:20:55 AM »

I've finally got my lock about 95% done and ready to inlet. All I have left that I feel is necessary is to polish the cock screw head and flint screw head, fix the cock screw slot that I marred up, probably blue the lock, and polish a few bearing surfaces and knock a burr off the tumbler notch. And fix the frizzen pan fit.

I did the whole thing with the below supplies.
8" flat mill
A flat straight bastard cut needle file
Half round tapered bastard needle file
A popsicle stick and a smaller craft stick
80grit, 180grit, 280grit, and 400grit wet/dry

I had a goof or two. There was a void inside the top of the cock that's behind the flint. I had my thick leather padded jaws a tad to tight and it dented it!! I was very surprised. I also couldn't get the slight dip and surface finish out of a spot just low/left of the pan. It's hard to see in pictures but very noticeable in person. I can't seem to get the 400gr finish even on all the surfaces. Some are more polished than others. I couldn't get some minor scratches out of a few areas.

It's a late ketland lock and I filed the teet off the rear of the lock plate. I also filed off the mini teet on the frizzen spring finally.

I put it back together and it still sparks well! Overall, I'm pleased with how it turned out. It took me a long long time.

One thing that bothers me is it seems like the frizzen fit is really poor. There's not a noticeable gap on the external side, but there's a large gap on the pan fence side and internal side closest to the fence. Also, the whole frizzen seems to be shifted towards the fence and the screw placement is very off center. It bothers me more and is more noticeable now that it's polished. I'll see if I can get the gap eliminated between the frizzen and pan and see if I can deal with the look of the off center screw

Now back to inletting!!

HighUintas · « **Reply #73 on:** May 20, 2022, 07:26:11 PM »

I feel like I'm going to need to do something about that frizzen fit, but I'm not sure. The bottom of the pan cover has a very deep depression in the center that extends out to the edge on the fence side. So, other than the gap you can see in the photo from the internal side of the lock, there is also a very good size gap around the center of the pan on the fence side. I'm afraid if I file the bottom of the frizzen pan cover completely flat, it's going to screw up the angles too much and I'll have a mess. The other option is just filing down the high spots on the pan surround until I close up the gaps, but I think that would take absolutely forever and then leave me with a very unflat pan surround surface and cause problems when this frizzen eventually wears out and needs to be replaced.

Even if I successfully get the gaps closed without screwing anything up, is there an issue with the frizzen being shift so much towards the fence and the very uncentered pivot screw?

HighUintas · « **Reply #74 on:** June 04, 2022, 07:24:29 PM »

I've got my lock inlet. Definitely not as good as some I've seen, but not bad for my limited number of chisels. Now on to drilling and tapping the lock bolt hole, installing barrel tenons, and drilling to pin.

I had a tiny bit of break through into the bottom of the barrel channel in the upper corner of the mainspring area due to not having my chisel sharp enough and getting a bit of tear out going against the grain there. I think I might glue in a sliver of wood there even though it might not be necessary and then soak the area with super glue to solidify it.

I also drilled the hole for the tumbler and sear screw a tad too deep, so I may fill in those with a dab of accraglas gel or other epoxy. If I get really motivated, I might get some appropriately sized dowels and cut thin disks to glue in the bottom and reinlet if needed.

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Author Topic: My first build and muzzleloader, inspired by Herb and JB (Read 15105 times)