Builder, Assembler, Stocker or What?

[Bob Gerard]

Something I have been kicking around in the back of my mind for a while and it's getting bumpy up there now; If someone gets a 'kit' so the stock is pre-carved and muchly inlet, and goes about building/assembling it, is that guy a "gun builder" or "kit builder", "hobbiest", "assembler" or- does it even matter?
My question stems from thinking how to describe what I do in making a long gun or pistol I have put together from component parts. Some kits are far more involved than others, of course. But even a Kibler kit can get significant work done on it, along with incise and relief carvings and inlays and such, so it's not quite an "assembly", or is it?
For me, I understand a "Gun Builder" to be the guy who tackles the project from a stock blank or rough, and might even hand make most parts as we see here in this forum. It's a far cry from what a "kit" involves.
So I am just tossing this out because am interested in what I would actually say I am doing at the Gun Bench in this regard.
Thanks for considering it,
Bob

[Paul from KY]

Perhaps there should be three categories:

Plank builder (a guy who does everything other than forging the barrel and lock)

Kit builder  (a guy who builds a kit using a roughly shaped stock with only barrel channel and RR hole cut)

Kit assembler  (a guy who builds a kit with over 90% of the stock work completed).

[Panzerschwein]

Does it really matter?

It’s not like our hobby is getting stronger by the day. Older fellas make up the bulk of our ranks, new blood is tuff to come by it seems. Why alienate guys and put labels on who is better than who?

If if a member doesn’t even build to begin with, they’re more n’ welcome to come burn some powder with me.

[Stoner creek]

This horse has been beaten on in the past and to a goodly extent.
Call yourself whatever you want. The proof is in the pudding with this craft just like it is with other crafts. Titles mean nothing.
 There was some woman on tv last week that said that she was a wolf. So, is she a wolf? In her eyes she’s a wolf 🐺!!

[R Whittington]

Does it really matter? Not at all.

[rich pierce]

In pursuit of fun I’ve ventured into freshing rifled barrels, reaming smoothbore barrels, and assembling locks. Still a lot to learn, of the many skills many late 1700s gunsmiths commonly did. I’d say gun stocker best fits most here who build from blanks.

[Bob Gerard]

I just hate to be presumptuous, I suppose.

[smart dog]

Hi,
There is no governing body so you call yourself whatever you want.  Knowledgeable folks will know were to place you on the gun making scale.  Unfortunately, folks less knowledgeable may get stuck with work from someone working beyond his depth.  I just fixed one of those lemons last week.

dave

[alacran]

I was going to say something else. Really who cares?

[Daniel Coats]

There's a really good interview with Frank House on YouTube. It's worth watching and about an hour long. He basically says that a gun maker makes everything including the lock and barrel. His guidance on the topic is don't oversell your abilities but be respectful of the work that others do. Not everyone progresses to the same level for an endless variety of reasons.

Here's what I think. What you call yourself isn't nearly as important as being honest about the work that you actually did.

[oldtravler61]

  Well I'm a COBBLER ..sometimes ya get the deluxe version an sometimes not...LOL
  Oldtravler

[Dwshotwell]

Not that it really matters, but to my hunting friends who don’t own a single chisel I could call myself a full - blown gun builder and they’d nod approvingly at my “work,” not that I would mislead them but they just wouldn’t care about the difference. But on this site I’d just say I’m a guy who’s put together a couple of kits and is trying to learn to do more. Context makes a difference.

[Levy]

I always thought of myself as a piddler with low ambition and little knowledge.  I'm an admirer of the work of others.  My forte is in sticks.  James "Sparkleberry Jim" Levy

[godutch]

Does it really matter?

It’s not like our hobby is getting stronger by the day. Older fellas make up the bulk of our ranks, new blood is tuff to come by it seems. Why alienate guys and put labels on who is better than who?

If if a member doesn’t even build to begin with, they’re more n’ welcome to come burn some powder with me.

     I'm with Panzershwein on this one. We're literally running out of 'live bodies' as time goes by it seems.

[Bob Roller]

In pursuit of fun I’ve ventured into freshing rifled barrels, reaming smoothbore barrels, and assembling locks. Still a lot to learn, of the many skills many late 1700s gunsmiths commonly did. I’d say gun stocker best fits most here who build from blanks.

Scratch built with lots of scratching.I have used 2 precarves,one from Don Brown for a Henry-Rigby type long range rifle and then a project by someone using a walnut full stock pre carve and brought them  to a successful finish.I bought ready to use barrels from Bill Large and then a big Tannewitz* band saw at my old High School wood working class room for the stock.I used my own locks and triggers,all were scratch built using lathe.milling machine and files and learning how to make springs and figuring out which material was best for me.
George Killen showed me how to make and temper springs beginning at age 15 and years later I helped him with high quality spring steel that was uniform in quality from one lot to the next. used 1075 for all the springs I made.Frequently the flint locks had frizzen springs that were cast but seemed to me OK.Tumblers were 1144 "Stressproof" that machines like 12L14 and oil hardens.Sears and "flys"were 0-1.
Screws were 12L14 and sometimes drill rod.Bridles were low carbon flat ground steel and sometimes case hardened.
Other than the earlier mentioned two guns,the rest were scraped and rasped from a plank.I now have a barrel in the wood but nothing else  and parts for a lpck but no ambition to do anything with it.
Bob Roller
* This was poorly phrased.I went to the High School and they let me use the big saw for cutting stock blanks.

[sz]

How far do we go with the idea?

Must we mine the iron ore and smelt it?  Must we do out own alloying to make steel from iron?  How about Zink and copper mining to make brass?
Is it no longer legit unless we cut and mill our own trees?
How about making our own powder and weaving out own cloth from fibers for patching?

And coal...mine that to fire your own forge.....which you also made from the dirt up.

You see, it's get ridiculous.

Most if not all Gunsmithing of early America (1760 to about 1790) were buying somethings to start with.  As locks and castings became available some bought them and by 1790 most bought many of the parts they made guns with.

I am a full time gunmaker and have been full time or part time since 1969. At times in the past I have made locks from bar stock and made my own barrels also from steel bars.   I have also done my own casting of several guns. But I don't do that now, and I am too old to want to do it anymore.  I am working off my back log and I want to go into retirement (mostly) in the next 3-4 years.  But I don't think of myself as a lesser gunsmith when I use a Rice barrel or a Chambers lock.

I can make a good lock and I can make a good barrel, but I can't make them any better then a Chambers or a Rice. (or several others)

 For me to make an equal gun with 100% Steve Zihn parts would cost the buyer about 4X-5X more then to make one with Chambers lock and Colorain or Rice barrel, and using castings from Allan or MBS I can give the customer an equal quality gun for a lot less money.
So we have many men cuss and discuss the merits (or lack there-of) of 100% original workmanship VS workmanship with purchased parts,------- but when the 2 bills are submitted as quotes, both to make a gun of 100% equal quality, with one being $3,200 and one being $14,500, just take a guess which one the buyers usually demand.

[Dennis Glazener]

Here's what I think. What you call yourself isn't nearly as important as being honest about the work that you actually did.

Amen, your sins will find you out! Knowledgeable will know and others will soon find out..
Dennis

[Ezra]

There's a really good interview with Frank House on YouTube. It's worth watching and about an hour long. He basically says that a gun maker makes everything including the lock and barrel.

I’m only on the periphery of this community.  The only people I’ve ever personally met who meet/or met the above criteria are Hershel House and Brad Emig.  I do not know if either will do it any more without a liberal application of money to pound out and rifle a barrel or an entire lock.  I’m in the it doesn’t matter category.  But if you claim you can perform a specific skill, you better be able to do it.  Always tell the truth.

Ez

[Bill Raby]

If you take a bunch of parts and turn them into something, you built it. Arguing over how much of the work you did on the parts is pointless. One guy will say you are not a builder unless you made the barrel. Then another guy comes along and says you are not a builder unless you dug up the backyard and smelted the iron out of the dirt. Its ridiculous.

[borderdogs]

I once knew a guy who built a car from a bunch of parts he had and others he got from the junk yard it was parts with a set of tires on rims. Two weeks later he was driving on the road it looked like heck and it blew lots of smoke but it ran until the cops pulled him over for driving without a licence. He was 13 and I guess you could debate whether he built the car or whether he put it together but he was the only one who actually did it. I think what people called him didn't matter to him and what people call themselves concerning guns doesn't matter either.

"your sins will find you out!" I agree 100% Dennis!
Rob

[Bob Roller]

There's a really good interview with Frank House on YouTube. It's worth watching and about an hour long. He basically says that a gun maker makes everything including the lock and barrel.

I’m only on the periphery of this community.  The only people I’ve ever personally met who meet/or met the above criteria are Hershel House and Brad Emig.  I do not know if either will do it any more without a liberal application of money to pound out and rifle a barrel or an entire lock.  I’m in the it doesn’t matter category.  But if you claim you can perform a specific skill, you better be able to do it.  Always tell the truth.

Ez

The truth is easy because it has only one version.A liar has to be the definition of a true sociopath if he or she remembers all the lies they told.I have made lock mechanisms from bars of steel and that they are speaking for me and my attitude toward those who paid me to make them.I can and have made usable rifles but make no claims as a rifle maker of note because I am NOT one.Years ago a man who shot in the Friendship matches of the late 1950's and early 60's and was also an Ohio Highway Patrol officer said when he pulled  people over for whatever reason,he said "They wreaked of strong drink and the truth wasn't in them"in many cases.Officer Ron Turpin,thank you for your service to all of us who traveled the roads of Ohio.
Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi,
Remember, most gunsmiths in the past used barrels and locks manufactured by barrel and lock making specialists and often imported hardware.  It was largely an economic decision because those components were cheaper than made by the smith.  The film "Gunsmith of Williamsburg" describes scratch building that was not the norm particularly during colonial times.  I am sure apprentices in America likely learned those skills but then hopefully ignored barrel making as much as they could for the rest of their careers.  Today, there is no need to make barrels. Modern barrels are safer and there is a good variety to choose from.  Although I understand the barrel making process, I probably never will make one from scratch because you can't do it alone and it is not a skill set that I consider necessary to call yourself a muzzleloading gunsmith, which I unconditionally call myself.  Nor do I believe you need to be able to make a lock from scratch to call yourself a gunsmith.  However, I do believe you need to be able to make every part, fix locks, tune locks, modify locks to fit objectives, and make springs.  I also believe there is a minimum skill set required to advertise yourself as a muzzleloading gunsmith.  In my opinion, you should be able to breech barrels, crown muzzles, make and install lugs and sights, install vent hole liners, make and modify all hardware to suit objectives if required. You need to be able to not only make stocks from scratch but give them good architecture and details.  Furthermore, if you advertise your work as historically correct, you need to be historically correct, which means you better know the styles and history of what you portray. If all you do is casual internet browsing, your knowledge will be superficial, indeed.  Anyway, it is fine to just assemble kits, or finish guns in the white.  I am happy to see folks assembling kits, like Kiblers and Chambers, and selling them. Not everyone needs to be a "muzzleloading gunsmith" and there is plenty of room for everyone to find their place.  The only time my hackles rise is when somebody portrays themselves as something they are not.

dave           

[Daryl]

This horse has been beaten on in the past and to a goodly extent.
Call yourself whatever you want. The proof is in the pudding with this craft just like it is with other crafts. Titles mean nothing.
 There was some woman on tv last week that said that she was a wolf. So, is she a wolf? In her eyes she’s a wolf 🐺!!

Ahh - What's her pronoun and does she prey on men who thing they are buck deer?

[Bob Roller]

I would never present myself as a gunsmith because in this area I'd be covered with guns that started at the bottom and went down and IF I repaired one and asked to be paid for the time I would get all kinds of blowback that usually starts "When I was a boy".I know of NO gunsmith in this area.I use the term Machinist or tool maker and sometimes a mechanic but never as a gunsmith.Lately I have been using "retired".
Bob Roller

[AMartin]

Builder, Assembler, Stocker or What?

Mostly I'm a (or what ) !! A busy one to boot ..

Who cares what they call it ..
Allen