Author Topic: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Finished assembling the pistol  (Read 9461 times)

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Perhaps too many pistols ?
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2022, 05:27:12 AM »
The Rosewood ones will be remarkable!

Offline davec2

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2022, 09:00:25 AM »
I had previously half way cleaned up the Dragoon lock casting set I had purchased several years ago from Blackley & Son in the UK. At the time they were moving their facility and foundry and did not have the screw set for this lock.  After several unsuccessful attempts to have a set delivered I gave up and am now making all of the required screws.  The bulk of them will be 6-40 although I may use an 8-40 for the frizzen pivot screw.  I have machined the tumbler and done more clean up and polishing on all the parts.  The cock is fitted to the tumbler shaft.  I will do all the internal fitting with some temporary 6-40 machine screws but will then machine the correct length and shouldered screws to replace them.



"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2022, 03:30:35 PM »
From rocket science to flintlocks.Am I on another forum or?????? I am well aware of having an aging parent and am glad your Mom was able to pull out of whatever afflicted her.My own mother lived to be 91 but was into a deep dementia that kept her in a nursing home and it was a mercy when she passed.I was holding her hand when the end came.My parents divorced just after Pearl Harbor and I never really knew my father.My maternal grand father was C.M.Taylor who was 99 years and 11/12 months old when he passed away.He was 94
when he put a new roof of the kitchen of the home we now own.
   Getting away from the depressing,yesterday I made some screws for a flintlock of some kind for a man in Ohio and they made no sense to me.They were also 6x40 made from mystery metal.I have some 5/32 12L14 I used for screws when I made locks as a common item.
Your dragoon pistols are interesting and how long did it take to get the lock parts from the foggy empire?I have heard a variety of stories about long delivery times.What are the springs made from and how can they be tempered if cast from more mystery metals??
Locks are labor intensive even when working with known materials and I tip my hat  to all who tackle these projects,Sort of like driving at full throttle into a foggy stretch of road,
Good luck to you with these projects'
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 04:08:13 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline davec2

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2022, 06:33:45 PM »
Bob,

Thanks for the note about my Mom.  Fortunately, she is mentally clear as a bell, as was my Dad who passed away at the age of 91 a few years ago.  I have been blessed to have her in my life for so long.  And I understand about the heartache of dementia for the rest of a family.  Both of my wife's parents had severe dementia for many, many years before they passed away. 

According to my own notes I found in the box with these pistol parts, I ordered the brass parts and lock castings from Blackley back in 2007.  As I remember, back then, the parts came fairly quickly.  But in 2014, when I tried to get the set of lock screws.....well.....after several emails back and forth, and many assurances that the screws were forthcoming, they never showed up.  I think that's why other projects took priority and this one ended up under the bench for so many years.

But now I will finish the pistol and make the lock screws from 12L14 as you do.  And you are exactly correct....I have no idea what alloy the springs, or any of the other parts, are cast from so heat treating will be a real shot in the dark.  And if I break a spring I will have to forge a new one as I can't count on getting a replacement casting.  I have assembled several locks from castings over the years and even made a few locks of my own from scratch and I tip my hat back to you, Bob, for the meticulous and beautiful work you have done over the years.  I have a lock you did for me several years ago now and I often look at the internals and marvel at the precision of your work.

All the best,

David
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline wmrike

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2022, 07:14:03 PM »
I can't be the only one who wonders if Dave vacuums his workspace before each picture, can I?

As always, absolutely beautiful work!

Offline davec2

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2022, 05:23:15 AM »
wmrike,

No....I don't vacuum the workshop very often......but I do look for a clean spot somewhere on the bench to take a picture.... ;)
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2022, 05:40:09 PM »
96 is an impressive age. Glad she recovered. Hope you have her for many more years.
Look forward to following your pistol project. Curious about the lock set. Are you going to use the cast guts? What size screws?

I have 2 sets wogden dueling pistol locks, 2 Le Paige percussion sets, and 1 set for a double barrel wogden pistol.
The "guts" on all these kits are so tiny that's it is impossible to drill holes for 3mm screws. Going to have to make all the guts from scratch.

Best regards
Rolf

I have never tried to use a kit for any lock and always made my own internals but on some smaller than normal mechanisms I have use the American #3x56. OneMM is .0394 and these screws are .098 as I made them.As I remember these screws were used in 2 tiny flintlocks
that were marked "Fenton".The cast internal parts were a hopeless case and Lynton McKenzie and Steve Alexander agreed with that assessment.You may have to make these little parts from solid bars as I did with every lock I made and special tools such as filing guides for the detail around the screw heads in the bridle and maybe a 2.5MM screw might work.I have the tools for these little screws and made a 2x64 on Friday.I have no idea what's available in Europe in steel bars but have heard small quantity purchases re nearly impossible.
Can you post pictures of these lock kits so we will see what you are trying to do??
Bob Roller

Offline davec2

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2022, 07:23:04 PM »
In keeping with what you are saying, Bob, the cast parts I have from Blackley's leave a lot to be desired.  They will work for me in this particular application but, being copied from originals, there are significant distortions, shrinkages, etc.  As has been the case with every set of lock casings I have ever assembled, some welding is almost always required to build up steel where it should be....but isn't.  Yesterday I had to weld some additional steel on the frizzen toe.  As usual, the frizzen toe was a good 0.040" narrower than the gap between the arm on the pan and the plate.  I could have used a washer to take up the space but that seemed far too "mickey mouse" a fix so I added the steel.  The internal parts have similar problems that I am working through now.  This kind of work is never easy and it makes me appreciate all the more the work you did with improving locks of all kinds by making new internals.  And I am worried about heat treating the "mystery metal" springs (as you so aptly put it) for this lock.  If they break, I will have no choice but to forge new ones from spring steel plate and I have never mastered that particular skill.  There must be a trick to it....but I haven't discovered it yet.  I would love to watch you make a main spring.... ;)
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2022, 11:29:22 PM »
Dave, your work on that firearm is coming along fine, and wish you luck with the lock from our Island Nation ally.

And "the man from Ohio" really appreciates Bob making those screws for me.  Consider myself lucky that I have a 2-64 tap for that stirrup screw.  Need to find a stirrup also!  And yes, the Durs Egg lock does use some odd things in it.  Including a frizzen spring roller attached with another 2-64 screw, luckily on hand.

Have a Traditions lock which arrived with no tumbler bridal, so will use your photo example to make one.  Should be fun!
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Clint

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2022, 04:02:59 AM »
IMHO most spring failures are from over heating. It's easy to over heat with a torch and there is no practical way to recover from being too hot. A safe way to heat a spring is to lay it in a layer of charcoal that is held in a small cast iron pan. Heat the pan from below until the spring is orange (not yellow) and oil quench (safe quench) or brine quench (adventurous quench). I have hardened and broken a few cast springs and have found that they seem to like being tempered at 800 degrees, that may sound like its a little hot but I have had good results with 800. If the spring seems a bit mushy, you can always anneal and reharden it and try 750 or so. It is a lot easier to reharden a piece  than to make a new one

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2022, 02:57:02 PM »
 I have used cast frizzen springs on a lot of locks with no reported problems but have no faith in a cast mainspring because of the greater range of motion involved.I know there are a lot of them used but not in my locks;Same goes for sear springs.No cast or ugly folded ones.
Making springs is associated with lock making but is a separate skill when compared to the other parts in a gun lock.
Nearly 50 years ago I showed a good machinist how to make tumblers,bridles and sears but he had a lot of trouble with springs until he learned how to preload them.
Bob Roller

Offline davec2

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Lock assembly start (from castings).
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2022, 07:13:19 PM »
Clint,

Thanks so much for the advice on heat treating the springs.  I have done it successfully before on other cast springs in the past but I am never confident about it and I think my success was mostly just luck.....and I have never done it the same way twice. (Another indication that I don't know what I'm doing  :o)  I do have a small casting furnace (pictures below) that I can control the temperature fairly well on.  Do you have a recommended temperature for the initial hardening ?





Bob,

First, thank you for your PM....I will get back to you today on that later today.  And, having tried to forge a few main springs in the past, without much luck I might add, I can affirm that it is a very different skill set from running a lathe or a mill !!!!  What do you mean by "preloading" a spring?
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Roller

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In preloading a mainspring for a lock I spread the forged spring after it is filed and polished to shape.I use expanding rubber wheels with different grits for finishing the yet to be spread blank. I have a curved and sharpened piece of 1018 that's 1/2 inch wide. The spring is places on this fixture that is locked down in a vise with the sharp end is inserted by tapping the closed spring down onto it and the the spring is heated to a bright orange and tapped down and spread open so the lower limb can be gripped with long needle nose pliers and curved to a point where the limb is about 1/4" below the extended link on the tumbler arm and the allowed to cool to the point it can be handled without tools and then as a check,it's installed in the lock as if it were finished.If I am satisfied by the fit and overall appearence I remove it and then
polish it with the aforementioned rubber wheels with abrasive belts.It is then heated to  a bright orange and quenched in a thin oil.After it cools in the oil I get it out with a magnet,wipe it dry and the,polish it again and temper it.
When it cools I install it in the lock and rotate the tumbler to check tension and the curvature if any of the lower limb and the flexing of the upper limb.Most of this relies on my experiences and figuring out how to do a specific job and is by no means intended to be the ONLY WAY.
It is what I used and over 50 years of success says it's at least partially right.
The expanding wheels can be bought from industrial supply shops and maybe other places. I have 3 bench grinders with extension shafts replacing the nuts that hold the wheels and one had 4 rubber wheels and one has 2 and the 3rd one has an adapter with a Jacobs chuck that holds stem mounted expanding wheels of small size for the rare instance of internal curved items like trigger guards.
   My way of tapering the lower limb of a spring is to first make the blank to a specific size which I do with a metal cutting bandsaw and then true it with a milling machine.The a small slot is cut with a ground to thickness woodruff key seater.Ihave a bar of square 1018 that has 2 pins offset to establish an angle and 2 clamps using bolts to hold the spring blank and the with a .050 cut I a taper in the lower limb is established. The milled spring is then removed from the clamps and draw filed and polished as previously described.
I have a fixture to hold the spring in a vertical position and both are clamped in a vise with a brass plate to protect the spring.A bend point is 
determined by the length of the spring blank and the distance from the bend to the stud that goes thru the lock plate and the that area is brought to bright orange and the spring is then bent across the upper edge of the fixture as far as possible.After removingthe semi forged spring then it is held in duck bill pliers with a modified jaw to accommodate the claw for the spring to hook to and the bend is reheated to the bright orange heat and the closing forging is done.All of this takes practice and is by no means said to be the only way but as stated,
it worked for me for a long time.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: March 22, 2022, 09:04:33 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Clint

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Dave,
If you look at a phase diagram you will notice that most of the carbon steels will convert to austenite right around 1460 degrees. many smiths shoot for 1500 so that all the different thicknesses and apendages have a chance to heat evenly. Freezing steel at austenite locks the carbon atoms in an unnatural position and that's what makes the steel hard and brittle. Time is an important factor especially in the tempering heat. I have had tumbler shafts (one) snap right off at the square because the temper heat was uneven. Carefully making small steel parts by hand then heating them and quenching is always an adventure and the real fun is testing in the gun.  CW

Offline Bob Roller

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Never heard of a tumbler square snapping off.I used 1144 LaSalle "Stressproof" and with my "Hillbilly"methods have had no failures that I know of and my locks of all kinds are all over the world.0-1 for sears and "fly",1018 for bridles.links and lock plates on caplocks +12L14
for screws and 1075 for springs beginning in 1957 when I was given a sheet of it by 97 year old P.I.Spence who was a retired machine shop owner in Marietta,Ohio.
Bob Roller

Offline davec2

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Had a chance to work on lock assembly a little today.  I had epoxied the fitted frizzen in place yesterday and drilled it for an 8-32 pivot screw today.  Then I machined the pivot screw and had some time left to set up to drill and tap for the top jaw screw on the cock.







I need to make all the rest of the 6-40 screws and heat treat the springs.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Otto

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This is a very interesting thread. Your work, as usual is very impressive. I still struggle with the mystery of springs. After trying every random technique I heard of back in the 70's,  I had a "good run" of success in the 90s and thought I had finally "mastered" it, but then a long series of failures, doing the same thing, humbled me. After 50 years of trying, I still find it a toss up. Sometimes great-sometimes the heart breaking snap and sometimes the discouraging "mushy" spring. . With a track record like mine, I would never give advice, but I would say not to give up too quickly. I have redone "poor" springs several times and finally had success. Some tell me that they have broken springs and welded them back together and still had success. The mystery eludes me still----

Offline davec2

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Cast spring heat treatment success !!!
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2022, 07:45:56 AM »
OK...so today was the day to try my luck on three irreplaceable cast springs...  sear, frizzen, and main.  I was not really worried about the sear spring.  If I needed to do so, I have made a fair number of those out of sheet spring stock (and even pallet steel strapping).  So not much of a problem to replace if the cast one failed.  The frizzen spring is a slightly bigger deal to make from scratch but not impossible.  I would just need to weld on the little decorative finial before heat treating and the shape is not too tough to bend.  I was mostly worried about the main spring.  I am not good at making those....yet.  So I was hoping I would not have to start my training in the middle of this pistol build.

I've done a few springs in the past with the Prest0-lite acetylene torch for the initial heat and quench but decided to try doing that first step in a little more precise fashion this time.  I planned to take the springs up to 1550 F or so in my melt furnace.  But because of the time it would take to come up to temp, I didn't want the polished springs to fire scale.  So I painted them with the same fire scale coating I used on the little rifle lock tumbler repair.  Here are all there springs with the coating drying.



Once dry, I put the springs in the furnace and ran them up to 1550F and then did a quench in room temperature brine water.



The springs looked great after I fished them out of the brine (no fire scale at all) but were not hard enough.  I could still bite a little with a file.  I postulated that either the coating slowed down the quench a bit (not too likely as the coating explodes off the surface on contact with the quench water) or I did not let the springs soak out at temperature long enough when the furnace hit 1550.  So without re-coating, I put them all back in the furnace and ran the temp up to 1600.  Another quench....still not hard enough for my liking.  Back in the furnace one more time.  This time I took the temp up to 1660 and held it for a good 15 minutes before another quench in fresh brine.  Bingo !  All three springs were as hard as glass.



Then I cleaned up all the surfaces (there was some fire scale now) and drew them all in a lead bath at 755 F.  (It took a bit to get the lead pot dialed into the right temperature) I let the springs swim around in the molten lead for about 20 minutes and then fished them out and let them air cool.



After I got all the bits of lead off the springs, I put the frizzen and sear springs in the lock and both worked great.  Because of the shape of this particular main spring, I had a heck of a time getting any of my several spring compressors to work.  Every one I tried slipped off the spring in one way or another.  I finally had to grind a shoulder on the fixed end of the spring parallel to the working arm.  Once I did that, one of my spring clamps worked.  I got the main spring compressed far enough to get it installed (without the spring breaking   :) ;) ) only to discover that, at rest, the toe of the tumbler was just about 0.010" too short and the spring would pop off the tumbler.  So....now I need to add a bit of weld steel to the tumbler before I can exercise the main spring in the lock and make sure it will handle more than a few cycles....
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Cast spring heat treatment success !!!
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2022, 01:20:48 AM »
Hope you have been able to get some time at your work bench, Dave. That Drsgoon looked closer to the  finish line 😊

Offline davec2

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Cast spring heat treatment success !!!
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2022, 06:11:25 AM »
Bob,

Actually I am away from my bench for a while.....back to aerospace work for now.  However, the main spring hardened and tempered great but now I don't like the shape of it installed.  At rest the belly of the long arm of the spring is dead even with the edge of the lock plate.  I may make a new spring entirely but may start off by annealing this one, reshaping it, and then re-heat treating.  I'll keep you posted when I get back out of the desert.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline davec2

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Re: Another "dragoon" type pistol - Cast spring problems now
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2022, 10:46:23 PM »
I will post some pictures in a bit, but i have annealed, re-shaped, re-hardened, and re- tempered this cast spring three times now !!!  We will see if it works this time.  If not, I guess there is no rule against doing it a fourth time  >:(  But I'm learning a lot ..... :o
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Gerard

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Patience and perseverance are qualities I do so admire!

Offline smart dog

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Hi Dave,
Can you not just open the hook on the spring a little to lengthen it so it does not pop off the tumbler?  I've done that frequently.  You only need enough space under the hook to clear the toe of the tumbler at full cock, no more. Of course you then have to harden and temper the spring again.  In the photo below look at the lock in the middle.  It is an original English lock from the 1760s.  Look closely at the hook as well as the hook on Chambers lock at the top. You can see where they bent the hook but eventually straightened the curve a little at the far end to fit the tumbler.



dave
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Offline Clint

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Dave,
I have worked on antique locks with as many as three different mainspring holes. Consider how the geometry will change if you move the spring pin hole one diameter closer to the tumbler. Make sure that the upper arm is paralell to the pan, or very slightly pitched down at the nose.

Offline davec2

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Dave, Clint....here is the continuing saga.....

So, before I saw your note about flattening the hook, I had already welded on some length to the tumbler.  Then I installed the spring and it worked....sort of.  When at rest or at half cock, the spring was fine, but the main arm of the spring was flat up against the fixed arm at half cock and it took three men and a boy to get it to full cock.  So I annealed the spring to change the shape.  I opened the bend and flattened the "belly" a bit in the main arm.  Then I re-heat treated, quenched, and this is how I drew the spring.......

I smoked it to keep any lead from sticking....



Then it went into my lead pot ......





I kept track of the temperature with this and brought the lead bath up to 760 degrees and kept it there for a half an hour......



The finished spring.....



First of all, I think that the spring casting I received many years ago now (from Blackley's) was not the correct spring for this lock.  I had to cut away most of the screw ring on the top arm and just cut a divot under the pan for a spur to set in.  As you can see, the spring shape is still not correct..... (and the hex screws are just temporary before someone calls me out on them... ;))



By the time the spring is at half cock, the wonky shape is even more pronounced......



And at full cock, the end of the spring hook is no longer in contact with the tumbler and the spring is being lifted on the end of the tumbler toe



I have yet to successfully hand make a main spring although I have tried a few times.  I think it time I learned that key part of lock making....... >:(
« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 10:34:00 PM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780