Deringer of Philadelphia rifle

[Mattox Forge]

I just received this rifle today. I am interested if anyone has references regarding about Mr. Deringer's civilian rifle production. He seems to be well known for the military contract rifles (and the little pistols too) and some trade rifles, but I can't find much about the civilian rifles.

I liked the look of this rifle. It was apparently converted to percussion and then reconverted back to flintlock. The sear spring seems to be a replacement as well. Apparently he was mass producing the civilian market rifles, as this has fitter's marks on the original parts including the barrel.

I noted a feature in the lock that I have never seen before. It appears to have a sear engagement set screw.





















Mike

[rich pierce]

Very nice! Derringer’s shop covered a wide range of customer demand. Here is one I plan to re-create. Got out-bid at auction.

[Daryl]

A few Deringer rifles are featured in "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865".

[jdm]

Mattox Forge  thank you for posting the picture of your rifle.  It's a very pleasing rifle.   There are pictures of Derringer's work in several books . Unfortunately ther doesn't seem to be  much information on his civilian manufacturing.  I have noticed he was not stuck on one  specific architecture. It's my believe he worked with the Young family of Easton Pa. when he was young.  Some of his rifles have a little bit of their flavor. At least in my mind they do.   

 Rich that wood be a fine rifle to recreate.   I hope you do and post it here.  Rich take a look at the patch box on this one.

[mr. no gold]

As I recall, Whisker displayed a Deringer 'Dream Rile' in on of his many books. it had raised carving., many engraved silver inlays and is just a super fine rifle. Sorry, I don't recall which book; perhaps on of his "Behold..." books. And, somewhere he does give a biography in another book. Given that he produced many hand guns from the small to fairly large and many rifles for the trade, it would seem that his military production was not so great. Thank you for posting the photos of your new find. I have enjoyed seeing it.
Dick

[smylee grouch]

Rich, that rifle you like sure has a " Kuntz " look to it. I know Kuntz had moved to Philadelphia but dont know if there was any connection between the two.

[rich pierce]

Rich, that rifle you like sure has a " Kuntz " look to it. I know Kuntz had moved to Philadelphia but dont know if there was any connection between the two.

Kuntz on a budget!

[Mattox Forge]

Thanks. I was spurred to buy this because of it pleasing overall shape. I was looking for an American long rifle to buy, as my antique flint gun purchases have all been English ones so far. Deringer is probably one of the makers that we can be fairly sure is all US built since he probably made his own locks. He certainly had the capacity, as he was manufacturing rifles for Army contracts. He could have bought British trade locks, but that might have been difficult during the time frame this rifle was made.

Something I read stated that Henry Deringer was sent to Richmond VA. to apprentice because his father had worked there and new people. This rifle reminds me of the Virginia Manufactory 2nd model rifles.

I would be interested to see if anyone has another civilian market Deringer to see if the lock internal design is similar. This rifle has the unique (as far as I know) sear adjusting screw and a fly, even though the gun does not have a set trigger. That would indicate that his lock production could have been standardized and he used the same locks regardless of the grade of gun. The higher grade guns like those posted in reply to my post would be interesting example to study.

There was another Deringer on auction recently by Rock Island. It had been smoothbored though. It had fancier fittings and a nicely engraved patch box.

Mike

[Mattox Forge]

Mattox Forge  thank you for posting the picture of your rifle.  It's a very pleasing rifle.   There are pictures of Derringer's work in several books . Unfortunately ther doesn't seem to be  much information on his civilian manufacturing.  I have noticed he was not stuck on one  specific architecture. It's my believe he worked with the Young family of Easton Pa. when he was young.  Some of his rifles have a little bit of their flavor. At least in my mind they do.   

 Rich that wood be a fine rifle to recreate.   I hope you do and post it here.  Rich take a look at the patch box on this one.

Jim,
Do you own this rifle?
Mike

[jdm]

Yes, I've had it for over twenty-five years.  It took me four years to get the deal done. 
 The rifle of yours puts me in mind of some of the so called eagle patch box guns. Derringer made for the trade.   Similar stock profile as some of those.

[Mattox Forge]

That is an extremely nice piece. The stock shape is quite unique. The lock is very similar in shape to mine. It appears to be un-converted. Have you ever had it out?  It is interesting to see the similarities of the brass hardware excepting the patch box.

Mike

[jdm]

Mike, Yes the stock profile is a little different .  The lock is not original to this rifle in my opinion. Itr i8s a great lock however marked J.J. Henry  Bolton.  This rifle was discussed here some years back but I can't remember when.
I forgot to ask.  Does your rifle have a proof mark back by the breach?  Maybe a round star shape . Or an oval with the letter P inside?

[mr. no gold]

Nice guns all, for sure! Going to Whisker for a moment, He shows an elegant percussion gun gun on page 43 in "Behold the Long Rifle" which has architecture that is very close to the guns under consideration here. Another rifle much like the one on p. 43 is shown on page     
19 and is almost certainly by Deringer. He showed a lot of variation in his work save for his pocket Deringer. One is much like the other.
Dick

 

[Mattox Forge]

Mike, Yes the stock profile is a little different .  The lock is not original to this rifle in my opinion. Itr i8s a great lock however marked J.J. Henry  Bolton.  This rifle was discussed here some years back but I can't remember when.
I forgot to ask.  Does your rifle have a proof mark back by the breach?  Maybe a round star shape . Or an oval with the letter P inside?

It does not. It only has the fitter's mark in the bottom flat "VI".



Which is on all the original iron parts I have examined, including the lock. Although some of the lock parts are marked "VII".

Mike

[Mattox Forge]

Here is the Rock Island one that recently sold
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1039/282/henry-deringer-marked-smoothbore-flintlock-american-long-rifle








I would love to find new made castings of a trigger guard like these have.



Mike