Author Topic: Interesting pouch and horns  (Read 1513 times)

Offline Dphariss

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Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2022, 02:58:27 PM »
That's an interesting tale. I wonder how the rifle came to be in Scotland, and which castle it was originally bought from by the Englishman who sold it to Mr. Flayderman.
Mike

Offline alacran

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2022, 04:12:13 PM »
Those are interesting horns with the bag and the bag as well. Unfortunately, only one photo of the set.
The rifle I was first made aware of in Wilson's book, which is one of my favorite books.
What I like most about the rifle is that even being over 200 years old, it doesn't show as much wear and tear as some of the modern made " antiqued " guns.
Think I will take down the Wilson book and look at it again.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2022, 05:18:41 PM »
That hunting pouch and horn set is by contemporary artist Gary Birch. They are not antique, but they are very convincing and well-made.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline heinz

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2022, 05:41:53 PM »
Gary Birch bags and horns a well respected, high dollar, items.  Gary is a great artist and a really interesting guy from Southwest Ohio.  He strives for period authenticity in both the construction and the art.  I do not think he does much contemporary longrifle work anymore.
kind regards, heinz

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2022, 07:56:14 PM »
Could be a battlefield pickup. So it might have been near new we it changed hands. Caliber is interesting too.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2022, 08:03:24 PM »
Gary Birch bags and horns a well respected, high dollar, items.  Gary is a great artist and a really interesting guy from Southwest Ohio.  He strives for period authenticity in both the construction and the art.  I do not think he does much contemporary longrifle work anymore.
I hate this fakery $#@*. And when antiqued to this level thats what it is. I wondered why anyone with a brain would use two horns of that size. Buyers get screwed by things like this all the time. If not by the maker then buy someone down the line. I know a guy that bought one of his own horns back as an antique 4 figure price. The sent it back on 3 bay refusal.
People need to think more about this level of “antiqueing”.
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Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2022, 09:23:45 PM »
The online catalog calls it out as by Birch. Well-done "antiqued" contemporary stuff without clear date markings can definitely be tricky. I don't recall any of these items having markings, but I know some of Birch's stuff was clearly marked with his initials and the last two digits of the date. That is one way for informed buyers to identify his stuff, but others have mistakenly thought that meant the items were from the 1780s instead of the 1980s. It's not fraud when Birch sells it to the original buyers for sure since they are probably commissioning or purchasing something in a particular style and know it is by him. Subsequent sellers might be mistaken by the quality of his work and the antiquing rather than fraudulent themselves (fraud implies knowledge and intent), so it is complicated. Discreetly marking the fully year something was made somewhere on the item seems an easy way to avoid the issue, but some people aren't going to like an 18th century item having a 21st century date on it, even if it isn't too overt. Artisans are working for their clients now after all not what someone possibly decades down the line might think.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2022, 11:51:35 PM »
One of my guns, signed, was sold as an original. Some years back. It had been made as new poorboy. Douglas barrel Russ Hamm lock. 1969 build date.
But for many such things are “inconvenient” to discuss. Its more wide spread with things such as horns. These have been faked since the centennial in 1876. Some for museum display.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Interesting pouch and horns
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2022, 10:54:53 PM »
I agree about the level of antiquing. I knew a guy who was such a good gunsmith and machinist that he could make anything and age it period correct. He did repairs that replaced original parts that were hard to tell that they not always part of the gun. He did "special" projects for museums to compliment a display of a firearm or some other thing. He told me he put a mark (his mark) on them so to distinguish it from the real thing. In contracts he  had with a client he always stated plainly that he put identifying marks on his builds to make sure they were not original. But as they say buyer beware.
Rob