Beck Hinges - More photos added

[keweenaw]

Here are a couple more photos of that Beck patch box.  This is a bit unusual Beck, carving not like a typical Beck rifle.  Following the first three are two photos of a more typical Beck patch box.





I'll add more thoughts on these at the end of the thread.

While we're on the topics of hinges, here are some photos of a J P Beck hinge that were posted in the antique section some time ago.  



This hinge is obviously different than Acer's in that it's a centered pin.  Am I correct in assuming that the "stops" which flank the hinge barrel are just filed into relief?  If you look carefully at the top surface of the hinge it would appear that the barrel of the hinge was also reduced in outside diameter by filing some of it away.  What a carefully made piece!

tom

[rich pierce]

Old JP did some fine work.  Sure looks like the decorative ridges etc were punched, burnished or filed in.  I like the way he flattened the hinge leafs at the edges to keep them from sticking up and grabbing at stuff.  Other thing we notice (judges please take note here) is that the masters did not worry about interior finishes.  Numerous examples of this abound.  The Leyendecker lid is all roughly rasped on the inside.

[J. Talbert]

Beck's hinge has a curious "outside" ridge along both lid and finial edges of the hinge, similarly seen on original Eister patchboxes.  I'm not exactly sure how this was done, but I'm curious to know if anyone out there could shed any light on it.  It almost appears "from the outside" that the hinge is made by folding the flap to the outside, although the inside view shows that is not the case.

Any thoughts or insights on this feature??

Jeff

[keweenaw]

Jeff those ridges are called  hinge stops and would limit the movement of the lid.  I think in practice the binding of the pin would stop the lid before the stops contacted each other. What I think, which is in the original post, is that they are simply filed on the finial and the lid.  The inside edges of them, toward the barrel of the hinge are also filed in by reducing the outside diameter of the barrel.  If you look at the picture of the lid closed you can see the section lines extending into the relieved areas before the stops.  This gives an interesting phenomenon you can see in the photo of the open lid where it looks like there is a load of clearance between the lid body and the sections of the finial barrel, but when looking at the lid closed there is almost no clearance.  When the lid is open it's opening over the barrel section that has been set back and reduced in diameter from the way it was originally bent.  I must have spent an hour trying to figure out how he did this until I noticed the section lines in the relieved area of the closed lid.  I would also say there is only a slight curve in the barrel of the hinge, most of the apparent curve is achieved by filing more toward the edges of the lid and finial than toward the center, plus by the beveling of the outward sections of the barrel. 

Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

One thing I notice in the 'open' shot of the hinge... There are serious punch marks on the bottom of the cover. Looks like they were used to close up the gap.

Still puzzled. If I had to make one right now, I would have to draw a bunch of options. Tricky, JP. And very clean engraving! I am impressed.

[rich pierce]

Here's my take on this picture of the Beck hinge underside.  Not easy to explain, so bear with me.


There are punch marks like dimples done with a round-ended punch and then there are punch marks that look like they were done with a blunted chisel.

I think the chisel-made ones were done before folding the hinge and raised the "stops" we see on the exterior of the hinge.  These were done as a continuous line/grrove/trough that raised a continuous ridge on the exterior.  But now we only see the parts revealed when the gaps were filed away.

The little round punch marks likely just squeezed everything together for the sweating of the overlapped hinge segment.

[Acer Saccharum]

Before filing I think the hinge barrels were bigger than they look from the front. The hinge splits between the knuckles appear to go from hinge stop to hinge stop. So I am thinking the entire hinge barrel from the face was filed down from larger knuckles, leaving the hinge stops.

dotted line is what was filed away.


In the 'open' shot, you see the two finial barrels with shiny spots where the door rubs when closed. But look, there is space between the finial barrel and door when the door is open. No space when door is shut.

Since the sideplates are separate pieces, a file could be run across the assembled door and finial.

[rich pierce]

online discussions are fun



If the stop ridge and furrow beside each kuckle was filed:

I am trying to visualize how it was done so that the trough or furrow on each side of the topside knuckles peters out to nothing at the edges while the ridge or stop remains high and the side knuckles are filed down to  a low level.  I am inclined to believe there is punch work involved.

On the other hand (pro-filing as the method used), the furrow could be filed first, in a straight line and of uniform depth, then when the outer knuckles are filed down,  maybe it would appear to peter out or become shallower.  Maybe not.

If you can follow this I'm not as confused as I think I am.

I am disinclined to think they would risk making any part near the hinge thin by filing troughs in it where it could lead to failure.

[Acer Saccharum]

I am saving myself a thousand words. Failing miserably.

[B Shipman]

Some makers, as has been stated, used a reverse hinge. Beck did not. This effect was simply filed in on many of his guns as far as I can see.

[frogwalking]

The side view reveals the door to be quite thick.  Could it be a cast piece rather than fabricated from sheet?  The answer may be obvious to those with access to the actual rifle, but I am limited to the photos.

[Acer Saccharum]

Frog, I thought the same. But I couldn't tell if it was two sheets laminated(unlikely) or a single casting.

Rich, I truly believe those blunt chisel marks are made to close the gap. If it was to form the hinge stop, the groove would go all the way across the door. Also, looking at the side view of the door, it's quite thick. It's not likely that the punching would effect much on the other side of the door. The material will flow to the easiest place to move...toward the hinge.

[Don Getz]

These are fantastic pictures of Beck's hinge, probably the best study of a hinge that I have ever seen.   Also note the
great engraving on that patchbox, pretty darn good for the time period...........Don

[Tom Currie]

Fun discussion guys, I wish I had a enlightening thought  to add. Tom your drawing is great , another talent . That would be a ton of work though to fabricate the hinge parts. I questioned the idea also that a punch could drive enough material to make the ridge without some sort of die underneath. Given the thickness of the lid I like Bill's ideal in that this is probably filed in relief. Would be the easiest way to do that. Rich makes a good point however on creating weakness by filing a transverse groove across the lid there, I originally thought that also but maybe with as much material as there is it not a concern, especially if the flange underneath goes past the thinnest section. Its hard to get an idea of how material is filed away on the 2 dimensional picture, only thing to go by is the wear pattern on the lid and hinge. No new thoughts here really , just my opinion, couldn't help myself from posting. Maybe it's because I love that rifle.

[Acer Saccharum]

Tom, think of the lid as a casting, and you can have all the material in the world for producing the hinge, hinge stops, etc. You won't file thru or weaken anything if you have plenty of material to start with.

The finial side looks all the world to me a separate hing piece affixed to the finial. Again, this could be made of a cast strip, filed into shape, fitted, and soldered onto the finial.

Don, you hit the nail on the head on both counts. Without these terrific photos, there would be no discussion like this. The engraving rivals Kuntz's work in its sure hand, clean lines, and design. Exquisite.

Tom

[Dphariss]

*Very informative thread*, the photos in particular have been a great resource.

Learned a lot looking at the engraving too.
This is ALR site at its best.


Dan

[Dphariss]

It should be possible to make a set of hinges that could be filed to this contour by using heavy brass stock.
Since I an not experienced in casting brass this is a great option.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

Dan, I am assuming cast, only because it was pretty easy to cast some barstock when you have all the tools to do it, forge, crucible, sand.

All you have to do is think of what you want, make a simple pattern of wood, and have the kid cast you up some parts. You're working on the brass parts by noon. Better than FedEx and PayPal.

[Acer Saccharum]

Neat additional photos. I like the inside patchbox shots that show the workings and the degree of finish on the inside of the box. Several size drill were used to pocket out the box. A big lump of wood left to attach the spring. Big honkin hook on the door. Cool beans. (all points off at Dixon's)

[Acer Saccharum]

I also realize there is a lot more hinge below the surface of the box than I first realized. It is probably a cast hinge, then, and attached to the finial. Maybe cast integral with the door on one gun, and attached to the other gun's door.

Thanks for posting these pics Snyder. We so often study each others work when we build, and seldom have access to original work.

[keweenaw]

Acer,

I'm virtually certain that your first sketch is the correct one with the hinge being filed from folded finials and lid.  For a long time I thought the hinge was constructed like your second sketch but the amount that would need to be cut away on the finial to get the stop is .015" or less, not significant with brass of 1/16" thickness to start and the undertab would reinforce it. If you look closely at the finial side you can see that there is a slight taper from the surface of the finial down to the front edge of the stop, now filled with gunk. On the photos of the plainer Beck patch box, the stops are pretty obviously filed in.  Oh how I wish I had those guns in hand to look at the work, but thankfully the owners posted these photos here some time ago.  The thickness of the brass is due to the fact that these were made from cast sheet brass, not the rolled stuff we're used to.  That catch hook on the lid is a pretty no nonsense item too.

Tom

[JTR]

For the new guys that might not have seen it, pictures of this rifle are in the Library at;
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2303.0

John

[Acer Saccharum]

I like this discussion of antique work as it pertains to building contemporary. I'd like to see more of this in the future. It would increase traffic in the library, I am sure. It would also give the builder more perspective on how things could be done, based on what WAS done.

[mr. no gold]

Nicholas Beyer did his box lids much the same way as his master did. Take the opportunity to look at the nice Beyer in the Library and study his approach to lid fabrication. And, if you want to see it in real time, you probably have a better chance of finding a Beyer to look at than a Beck rifle, which tend to be somewhat scarce.
Dick

[flehto]

If a hinge were made to "look" like the latter JP, could a separate hinge from .062 sheet be made that would "sandwich" the lid inside and outside? Or could this hinge actually be made this way?  Don't know much asre originals, but asking anyways.....Fred