Author Topic: Fixed tang/breech plug for Hawken (Read 3355 times)

Chocktaw Brave · « **on:** March 13, 2022, 03:47:32 AM »

Does anyone make this, and is it the exact same profile as the two piece one? My stock is already inletted for the tang, and mostly for the barrel. I am not having any luck with fitting the two piece one together, and I know it’s important to have a good fit, or accuracy is out the window.
I have been working on this for a week and it’s not any better than when I started. Thinking of lopping the rear of barrel Off and starting over with the fixed one. I have also read that the drilled out breech plug(two piece style) is not the best. Issues with powder seating properly.

Or maybe I could weld/silver solder them together and eliminate all movement. I really don’t want to shorten my barrel if I don’t have to.

flinchrocket · « **Reply #1 on:** March 13, 2022, 04:04:46 AM »

First thing I would try is put some braze on the part of the hook where to much was taken off.

Dphariss · « **Reply #2 on:** March 13, 2022, 05:22:26 AM »

Quote from: Chocktaw Brave on March 13, 2022, 03:47:32 AM

Does anyone make this, and is it the exact same profile as the two piece one? My stock is already inletted for the tang, and mostly for the barrel. I am not having any luck with fitting the two piece one together, and I know it’s important to have a good fit, or accuracy is out the window.
I have been working on this for a week and it’s not any better than when I started. Thinking of lopping the rear of barrel Off and starting over with the fixed one. I have also read that the drilled out breech plug(two piece style) is not the best. Issues with powder seating properly.

Or maybe I could weld/silver solder them together and eliminate all movement. I really don’t want to shorten my barrel if I don’t have to.

Put a 10-32 button/dome head screw into the back of the hook to hold the standing breech solid If the head is too small go to a #12 screw. Use one that takes an Allen wrench nor a flat or Phillips screw driver. You can order pre-fitted breeches from the Hawken Shop. Cutting the barrel is not necessary in any case.

Herb · « **Reply #3 on:** March 13, 2022, 07:32:46 AM »

There is no solid breech and tang available. I have seen one. "Drilled out breech plug---" Is this a flint breech? Just curious. You are correct that for accuracy the fit has to be close so the plug cannot shift upon firing. There is a simple cure. Just "take up the windage". Wax the tang and stock breech area and put some glue on the back of the breech plug (you are only fitting maybe .020 of an inch) and install the barrel and pin it. When the glue dries, the parts cannot shift, but you can remove the barrel. I did this once. Don't tell the big boys. Today I got a 1" "Kit Carson" plug and tang from Track of the Wolf and the hook will not go into the tang. So much for their "close fitting parts". I also have a lot of trouble getting a close fit of these parts.

This is a Hawken built by Neill Fields, with a solid breech and single trigger. I don't know where the solid breech came from. This picture is from 2012, the rifle was several years older.

Chocktaw Brave · « **Reply #4 on:** March 13, 2022, 08:16:12 AM »

Yes, flint. I thought it was odd the flash hole going through behind a threaded portion, but that’s the only way it will line up with the pan.
Here’s the drawings.

borderdogs · « **Reply #5 on:** March 13, 2022, 03:13:50 PM »

Getting these two fitted correctly isn't easy I just did a percussion one and spent more time on it than the any other item in the build. What I found works at least for me is to take out only what is interfering with the fit using transfer color. The first one I did recently was a flint type like you are doing from Pecotonica. In the end I bought a new tang because I screwed the first one so much. Using transfer color you can color both or one surface put them together then wiggle the parts and look for a bright spot. Then using small files or even a graver take the material away and try again. Work slow and take light cuts I found its best to try to keep the surface of the breech alone for the most part. You might have to take some material off the breech face but I try to leave it as a reference it you know what I mean.

The first one I did it took me a week and new parts to get it to fit right. The following ones were easier and I got good fits. The problem with the L & R Hawken tang and breech (percussion and flint breeches) is the fit isn;t great to begin with. Having the stock already inlet for a hooked tang you have "wings" on the tang that prevents you using a standard flint tang. I will try to post some pictures of a couple of the ones I did. When you get a good fit between the tang and breech solder or super glue them together and fit them to the stock as a unit. I learned a lot from the people on the forum in particular Herb, Taylor, and Roger Sells were a big help and inspiration. One last thing I would recommend it do not be ashamed to purchase a new tang or even breech and start over. If the parts you have have been filed to any great degree it might be easier to start fresh.
Rob

Frank · « **Reply #6 on:** March 13, 2022, 03:17:25 PM »

Fixed tang Hawken plugs here.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/663/1

borderdogs · « **Reply #7 on:** March 13, 2022, 04:35:32 PM »

The wings with the divots shown in the hooked breech tang are not on the fixed tang. With a pre-inlet stock for the hooked breech can't use those.
Rob

Chocktaw Brave · « **Reply #8 on:** March 13, 2022, 06:20:57 PM »

Thank you all,
Rob I have been using the inlet grease, but it doesn’t help. Seems like when I get one side fully touching, then sand it(I’m not using a file as I’m afraid it will take too much), then I get a wobble and nothing’s touching.
I’ve filed/sanded the breach face because I sanded the tang perfectly flat. I thought this would be easier having at least one true surface, it’s not. I have also been using a dremmel with diamond “dental” style tips, very small and cut real slow.
Here is where I’m at:

Herb · « **Reply #9 on:** March 13, 2022, 06:53:48 PM »

CB, you could just solder these parts together and not have the lift-out barrel feature. If you got a solid plug and tang as shown in my pictures, you could not lift it out. You'd have to pull the keys and remove the tang bolts if you wanted to remove the barrel and tang. If you can't solder, there are metal adhesives that will hold these parts together. Think super glue.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2022, 07:22:45 PM »

Bill Large made a lot of solid "patent"breeches and I made a few as well when he needed help.My own(one and only) hawken had a solid breech and never had a minute of trouble with it and no harder to inlet than that the hook breech.A lot of the hook breeches Bill used came from the Hawken Shop when it was in St;Louis and that shop had all breeches X rayed to check for flaws and the flawed ones sent back to the foundry.Good way to stay out of court and shows concern from the supplier for the users.I do not know if anyone is doing this X ray exam of a critical part or not but they should be.
Bob Roller

borderdogs · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2022, 08:36:31 PM »

CB, I been through what you describe and filed the tang side flat and that doesn't work. From your description you are doing too much sanding, filing and grinding. Skip the inlet black and try using a black magic marker and cover both surfaces. Then put them together and wiggle up and down and look for a bright spot however small and take a small file and put a few swipes to it. It may be from what I see from your pictures you might have to start with a new tang or possibly a new tang and breech. You have to take very small swipes with a file one or two at most and restrict it to the bright spot. Then put them together and see what the fit is like. Like Herb said when the fit is good glue them together then file the tang, breech and barrel flats as one unit. Then fit the whole thing into your stock.

Like I said earlier the fit of the tang and breech isn't good but it doesnt require a lot of filing to get a good fit.
Rob

Chocktaw Brave · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2022, 08:48:46 PM »

So I kinda see what’s going on here. I shined a light behind it in two directions side to side and top to bottom.
I can see daylight on all four sides. So something with the tang protrusion is binding. But it feels loose I can wiggle it around move it up and down with no problem.
I’m worried about getting another one and having the same thing happen. Plus I’m afraid if I take the breech plug out now it’s going to destroy the barrel threads. So that’s why I would probably cut off the barrel and start over again.putting new threads in barrel.

borderdogs · « **Reply #13 on:** March 13, 2022, 09:13:50 PM »

I remove my barrel breech when I start a build then fit the barrel to the break regardless of whether I have to fit the breech to the barrel or if the breech is already fitted. I don't see a problem with removing the breech you can use a cresent wrench to do it. Your photos show what happened to me the first time I fitted a tang. You can relieve the area around the breech lug or hook at its base and you can get a better fit. Use a graver or a small triangle file to get at the corner. In some cases you can dish the inside of the flat face of the tang leaving the outside ends alone. That can help get it closer but it probably will not make it a good fit what you show is where I was when I replaced my tang and started over. I am trying to load some pictures but I am having some trouble getting them to down load.
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2022, 09:18:48 PM »

Your picture shows the diagonal bottom flat bearing. That may be the problem. Another trouble spot is the cavity the hook goes into. blacken the parts, try the fit, and examine that groove where the top of the hook fits. If the hook is hitting in that groove, it will take the black off there as well as at the top of the hook. Using a Dremel dental burr, cut the white marks away in the groove.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2022, 09:39:51 PM »

I supect that you have rounded the surfaces that have to remain flat. Rather than use a file or especially sand paper to dress the two parts, I use a scraper I made from a file. It is about 3/8" wide and I ground a graver type end on it with a slight heel. I installed a good handle so I can really press and remove the high spots that show transfer colour. What is likely holding your parts apart and not letting them seat is the end of the hook striking the bottom of the female recess up at the top next to the tang, and also the mating edges of the hook where it extends out of the breech, and the corresponding edges of the tang's recess. The graver and scraper work well in those tight areas so you can stay well away from the flat surfaces and especially the corners. It is my opinion that power tools can get you into irreversible trouble almost immediately.
Rather than wiggle the tang around on the hook which will give you completely false 'high' spots, place the tang over the hook and give the tang a tap with a medium sized hammer. Then remove the tang carefully lifting it straight up, and check for contact that prevents the two pieces from seating.
You may have passed the point of no return and need a new breech plug and tang. Removing the plug from the barrel will in no way damage the barrel's threads unless you have either cross threaded it or overtightened it.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #16 on:** March 13, 2022, 10:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Herb on March 13, 2022, 06:53:48 PM

CB, you could just solder these parts together and not have the lift-out barrel feature. If you got a solid plug and tang as shown in my pictures, you could not lift it out. You'd have to pull the keys and remove the tang bolts if you wanted to remove the barrel and tang. If you can't solder, there are metal adhesives that will hold these parts together. Think super glue.

I have a barrel like this in a piece of walnut and I made a solid breech like Herb just described but minus the soldered joint.GM 50 caliber and one inch across the flats and 34 inches long.I would trade for a 7/8" 40 caliber longer than 30 inches and threaded for the plug.I can make any kind of plug I want.A friend wants the stock for his project.
Bob Roller

Chocktaw Brave · « **Reply #17 on:** March 14, 2022, 12:00:00 AM »

Well I tightened it pretty good to make it hit that last flat. I wasn’t using a cheater pipe or anything but I was using a breaker bar and socket.

Your right about the wobble I can put it on there three different times and it’ll show me three different spots that are high. so it looks like I’m just chasing my tail. I will try to get it on there straight like you’re talking about and see where it’s hitting.

I thought it was hitting the hook portion too and I filed down the inside of the tank. Now it feels like the tank will move around some on the hook. So I don’t think it’s hurting.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #18 on:** March 14, 2022, 12:46:54 AM »

I'm so glad I don't make hawkins rifles!

borderdogs · « **Reply #19 on:** March 14, 2022, 01:33:38 AM »

CB,
Here are a few pictures of the percussion tang I did recently most of these are early in the fit process and if I can I will load a few pictures of how it finished up. I don't have a scraper like Taylor said but I use gravers and small files and get pretty good results.
Rob

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Chocktaw Brave · « **Reply #20 on:** March 14, 2022, 02:06:26 AM »

That percussion tang looks even harder to do!
So I used the hammer straight down as this is what I came up with.

borderdogs · « **Reply #21 on:** March 14, 2022, 02:46:56 AM »

Here are a couple of the tang ready to inlet into the stock I used super glued the parts together filed them as a unit before I inlet them. The percussion are as hard as the flint Taylor has good advise he has helped me get though my first.
Rob

borderdogs · « **Reply #22 on:** March 14, 2022, 03:01:14 AM »

Here is another picture of the percussion tang I haven't polished the inside of the snail yet but I will open that up and polish it. The other picture is of a flint tang that is not hooked.
Rob

Chocktaw Brave · « **Reply #23 on:** March 14, 2022, 05:28:14 PM »

Thank you for your advice, I took it and I am going at it with a very small file. Only hitting the blackened areas a few swipes each time.
I think it’s a little better, hard to tell as I may be looking for a seamless fit, but I am not sure if that’s possible here.
I believe a little more fitting/ filing will get me close. There is a place on the upper right side angle flat that is low. I feel if I try to get that out it’s going to mess it all up again.

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #24 on:** March 14, 2022, 06:22:00 PM »

Coming along well now with the fitting, looking pretty dang fine!

You part of the McAlester group of Choctaw? had a few friends there when I was living in the Creek (Muskogee) Nation. Good folks.

You are lucky in one aspect - I have had a tang/breech for a flintlock on back order from Track for over two years. Some day my ship will come in!

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Author Topic: Fixed tang/breech plug for Hawken (Read 3355 times)