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Author Topic: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?  (Read 2762 times)

Offline Jim Filipski

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Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« on: March 16, 2022, 12:42:49 AM »
Just throwing out a question here: Trying to get opinions on shaping the lower forestocks. Who uses the 1/3 -2/3 rule on shaping and who uses the 1/2 -1/2 rule?
When I started scratch building back in 1983...my designs went with the 1/3 -2/3 rule of shaping. Thinking back now those rifles ( still have a few) felt and looked better in my opinion.
Then looking forward 15-20 years I started following Pete Alexander's 1/2 -1/2 rule...it makes a nice stock but I'm thinking of going back to the 1/3-2/3  style on my next few builds!
Lets hear what you folks are doing.
Jim
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2022, 01:07:09 AM »
I'd do what ever Peter Alexander doesn't do.
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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2022, 01:11:07 AM »
Ahhhhh 🤦🏻‍♂️ Mike 😂😂😂😂.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2022, 01:14:04 AM »
I agree with Mike.

Also I have no idea what anyone is talking about.  What do these fractions mean?  I just look at antiques but I don't whip out a George Costanza T-square!   ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2022, 01:59:07 AM »
Eric,
 It is the dividing point were the top of the forestock meets the bottom of the forestock
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Online Bob Gerard

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2022, 02:03:18 AM »
Wait Georg Castanza  had a T-square? Not that there’s anything wrong with that ::) ::)
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2022, 02:40:43 AM »
So you're talking about a ratio, viewed from either side (lock side or sideplate side) of the  vertical height of the forestock relative to the vertical height of the lower forearm?  If so, I've never heard of anyone comparing them fractionally.  I just figured we were all eyeballing them and going for as much slenderness as possible without creating instability.
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Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2022, 02:50:16 AM »
I guess I'm more mathematically inclined! I have always built like that!  ;)
Sure glad I did not mention the golden mean!  ::)
Jim
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2022, 02:50:43 AM »
Thinking it’s about how far down the forestock from the top edge, the widest part of the egg shape is. I think this depends on region and era and is not universal.
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2022, 02:52:22 AM »
Might be off base but would the style or school of gun kind of dictate that ?
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Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2022, 02:56:32 AM »
Rich,
 I guess you are correct. I have never really followed a "School" but just used the "schools" to help create my designs over the past 40 year's!
I really admire how some of the builders here can build a rifle to the appropriate School!
Jim
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2022, 03:07:46 AM »
Quote from: Jim Filipski on March 16, 2022, 02:56:32 AM
Rich,
 I guess you are correct. I have never really followed a "School" but just used the "schools" to help create my designs over the past 40 year's!
I really admire how some of the builders here can build a rifle to the appropriate School!
Jim
You jest, Jim. Your Vienna rifles are very true.
But, following rules across all types of rifles kind of makes them all look the same somehow and that is one critique I’ve heard of the formulaic and rule-based approach in Alexander’s book. Some don’t want a Lehigh or Bucks County or Lancaster or Reading rifle to look the same in some inexplicable way. But sometimes they do.

A good many originals break many rules.
The Musicians rifle has less than half the barrel exposed from what I see. It’s masterful.
Bucks County rifles are often flatter in the tang area and the edge of the sideplate molding is sometimes above the edge of the side flat of the barrel. Same for some Lehigh guns. And oh my goodness let’s not even start on later North Carolina or Tennessee mountain rifles. If one tried to follow rules and formulas, all flavor would be lost completely.
Wrist length varies widely; Christians Spring pretty short and Bucks County very long, but devotees of the Golden Mean will find a way for both to fit the formula somehow.
And so on.
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Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2022, 03:09:33 AM »
It is very interesting to me that the American "Schools" of building seem so staunch!
The last bunch of builds I have done,were German Jaegers: I researched the clients family in Germany to find the sections they were from...& yes they had different stock Architecture ....But after that , any engravings , carvings or what ever, could be a whim! You had a total creative pallet with European Weapons!
Grotesques...being one of them! You get to be very creative with those builds! No slap on the knuckles with a ruler for not following the "School"
Jim
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2022, 03:52:24 AM »
Quote from: Mike Brooks on March 16, 2022, 01:07:09 AM
I'd do what ever Peter Alexander doesn't do.

Probably a good idea.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2022, 03:56:19 AM »
I started stocking MLs quite a time back and have no idea what the 1/3-2/3 and 1/2 and 1/2 are. Maybe I have not been paying attention. I never measured anything for a “golden mean” either its completely nebulous it seems.  It either looks right or it don’t.
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Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2022, 03:56:44 AM »
It Is really great to be back on this Forum! Some of the greatest modern minds of the Longrifle are here! It is a great honor for me!
I have been away too long!
jim
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Offline Jim Filipski

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2022, 04:01:30 AM »
OK Then, Without the use of mathematics......  How do you guys shape your Lower forestocks! By eye ...By feel or by whatever!
Sure would love to learn others ways!
Jim
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2022, 04:11:39 AM »
The center of the nose of the lock, for me, should usually lie right on the line of the widest part of the lower forestock or grip area. From there forward toward the entry thimble there’s room for plenty of variation in shape, but the origin of the fattest part of the lower forestock should flow from the front lock molding which should center on the lock nose. My view or understanding. Could it be otherwise?
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2022, 05:25:09 AM »
Quote from: Bob Gerard on March 16, 2022, 02:03:18 AM
Wait Georg Castanza  had a T-square? Not that there’s anything wrong with that ::) ::)
LOL
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2022, 06:19:22 AM »
Isn't an architect just an art school drop out with a tilty desk and a big ruler? 

What Rich said above seems to make perfect sense.  I am a huge proponent of eyeballing things.  As was noted above, it either looks right or it doesn't and different regions, different 'schools' and different eras - not to mention different makers - all carry wide variations so I can't fathom how a formula would really translate in practice.

But then, I'm not Art Vandelay...   :P :P
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Offline flehto

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2022, 08:52:38 AM »
I no longer build, but when I did build, I just did it so it looked good.....Fred
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Offline heinz

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2022, 02:41:17 PM »
I shape mine by hand with planes and draw knives.  I went back and looked at a few and I follow what Rich Pierce said, which seems to be more of a 1/3 down from the top of the forestock to the widest point in the forearm.   Out on the long muzzle section it is a bit closer to the middle although the slopes of the lower are fading to the ramrod channel make it look a bit longer on the bottom.

EK, an artist is just an architect who cannot afford the equipment.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 03:49:08 PM by heinz »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2022, 03:41:01 PM »
Forend shape/cross section is going to depend on the style of rifle or even when it was built. Is is a early Lancaster? An early Hawken 1/2 stock or a late one? An Allentown?  A post Civil War percussion?  Is it a half stocked rifle without a rib? Is it a 18 pound chunk rifle or a slim little thing?
Is the  lower forend rounder or is is a deep stock with a more heart shaped cross section?
This said there are people here with a LOT more experience looking at original rifles than I. But these were all stocked with hand tools and sometimes by apprentices I am sure. 
The 1/3-2/3 or a heart shaped cross section would give more wood at the  lower “corner” of the side flat on a very slim stock.
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Offline alacran

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2022, 04:11:38 PM »
Who is Peter Alexander?
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Are you a 1/3-2/3 or a 50/50 builder?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2022, 04:28:04 PM »
  I just eyeball it an go from their... It all comes out in the wash. One way or the other...
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