Author Topic: Can anyone ID this double flint gun (Read 2787 times)

Dennis Glazener · « **on:** March 16, 2022, 02:14:01 AM »

A friend sent these to me. has been in his family for awhile. He does not know much about them. I will say it currently resides in one of the southern states.

Any help would be appreciated.
Dennis

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2022, 02:17:38 AM »

A few more:

JHeath · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2022, 03:04:01 AM »

Maybe Jacob Ferree of PA.

Some of it looks English-y but I don’t think it’s English.

rich pierce · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2022, 03:47:50 AM »

Brooks will know. Looks French to my less experienced eye. Locks do not look English to me at all. And it has a real cheekpiece. Can’t think it’s English.

James Rogers · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2022, 04:05:07 AM »

French hardware and stock styling to me. That doesn't make it French. Could be from the nether regions. I didn't look into or research the lock engraving.. every time I turned my phone upside down to read, it flipped on me again 🙃

smart dog · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2022, 04:05:47 AM »

Hi,
It is most likely French or Belgian and of middling quality.

dave

120RIR · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2022, 05:48:52 AM »

Interesting...the J.Ferree (or what appears to the J. Ferree) signature on this piece is almost identical to this J. Ferree on a cobbled-together pistol offered up to me after I got the Joel Ferree rifle at the recent Florida auction.

120RIR · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2022, 05:51:56 AM »

And...isn't that "Lancaster" on the other lock? Strange stuff.

JHeath · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2022, 07:12:24 AM »

Jacob Ferree lived 1750 - 1807, made guns and powder in PA. He was the nephew of Joel Ferree, also a gunsmith. I am no expert about the design and construction but that seems a clue for a gun that says "J. Ferree" and "Lancaster."

A DAR chapter is named for him:

https://www.jacobferreechapterdar.org/about.html

If you scroll to the bottom, it cites a book, "Ferree Family Gunsmiths". So maybe there was a James, John, Joseph, and Jesse Ferree.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2022, 01:03:04 PM »

Note the brass inlay marked 139.And yes the lock does have Lancaster on it.

Dennis

Feltwad · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2022, 01:24:49 PM »

To me it looks a bit of this and a bit of that with old and new parts most likely built in the 1970,s or 60,s
Feltwad

pilot · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2022, 04:42:20 PM »

The number tag reminds me of a "rack tag" you see on military rifles. Seems odd on a shotgun.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #12 on:** March 16, 2022, 06:24:43 PM »

French or possibly Belgian. I have seen many of these over the years. The barrels are removed by removing the ram rod then pulling out a collar inside of the rear ram rod pipe.

JTR · « **Reply #13 on:** March 16, 2022, 10:25:36 PM »

That name/place engraving on the locks certainly isn't anywhere as old as most of the guys on this forum, nor their kids!
And it's not remotely similar to the way the real J Ferree signed his name.
Just my opinion of course.

JHeath · « **Reply #14 on:** March 16, 2022, 11:26:41 PM »

Quote from: JTR on March 16, 2022, 10:25:36 PM

That name/place engraving on the locks certainly isn't anywhere as old as most of the guys on this forum, nor their kids!
And it's not remotely similar to the way the real J Ferree signed his name.
Just my opinion of course.

Which “real” J Ferree? There was Joel born 1729, Jacob born 1750, and apparently more Ferrees since a descendant wrote a book about Ferree family gunsmiths. When you say “certainly”, how are you certain it was no Ferree who ever made guns?

JTR · « **Reply #15 on:** March 17, 2022, 12:12:46 AM »

Quote from: JHeath on March 16, 2022, 11:26:41 PM

Quote from: JTR on March 16, 2022, 10:25:36 PM
That name/place engraving on the locks certainly isn't anywhere as old as most of the guys on this forum, nor their kids!
And it's not remotely similar to the way the real J Ferree signed his name.
Just my opinion of course.

Which “real” J Ferree? There was Joel born 1729, Jacob born 1750, and apparently more Ferrees since a descendant wrote a book about Ferree family gunsmiths. When you say “certainly”, how are you certain it was no Ferree who ever made guns?

Just my opinion, of course. If you want to believe a Ferree made this gun, feel free to do so.

120RIR · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2022, 01:35:21 AM »

Just my opinion as well but the supposed J. Ferree and Lancaster on these locks is virtually identical to the J. Ferree on the cobbled-together pistol I posted previously in this thread. I appears to me that someone at sometime and in some place decided to slap together and mark some comparable locks to a J. Ferree with the implication of it being the earlier Joel Ferree who started out in Lancaster County. To see an actual Joel Ferree signature, check out the rifle that was recently "discovered" at a Florida auction in the "They're still out there" posts of a month or two back on this forum.

Bill Paton · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2022, 02:01:45 AM »

The “engraving” on these locks almost looks like Dremel tool work. Its is a far cry from Ferree quality actual engraving. Too bad to mess up any quality flintlock double gun. I would still like this gun on my wall, appreciating it in spite of the forgery.
Bill Paton

JHeath · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2022, 03:43:46 AM »

Quote from: JTR on March 17, 2022, 12:12:46 AM

Quote from: JHeath on March 16, 2022, 11:26:41 PM
Quote from: JTR on March 16, 2022, 10:25:36 PM
That name/place engraving on the locks certainly isn't anywhere as old as most of the guys on this forum, nor their kids!
And it's not remotely similar to the way the real J Ferree signed his name.
Just my opinion of course.

Which “real” J Ferree? There was Joel born 1729, Jacob born 1750, and apparently more Ferrees since a descendant wrote a book about Ferree family gunsmiths. When you say “certainly”, how are you certain it was no Ferree who ever made guns?

Just my opinion, of course. If you want to believe a Ferree made this gun, feel free to do so.

I don’t know or care if a Ferree made this gun. I am just interested in how or whether people eliminate possibilities before making judgments. This gun might have cobbled together last week for all I know. Or maybe it was cobbled together in 1790 or 1840 by another member of the family. When you start analyzing a gun is it a presumptive forgery until proven otherwise? Is it presumptively genuine until proven otherwise? Or do we withhold judgement and start eliminating possibilities? Commenters above say it is a forgery because the signature is not “Joel Ferree’s”. There were at least 5 Joel Ferrees involved in gunsmithing, plus Jacob Ferree. The gun might be the biggest forgery since Howard Hughes’s will. Or maybe the 2nd Joel A Ferree made it at age 10 the way we built model airplanes.

I think it is wrong to declare a guy’s gun a forgery without having done more homework. He likes his gun, maybe it was a gift from a relative that came with a story about it being passed down in the family. And now we’re declaring that Uncle Harry was a liar, because we didn’t know the signatures of the other 5 Ferrees or maybe even didn’t know they existed. I’m less than an amateur but a couple minutes of google turned up this:

http://www.ferreedescendants.com/gunsmiths.htm

Joel Ferree 1731-1801
Jacob Ferree 1750-1807
Col Joel Ferree 1771-1813
Joel A Ferree 1806-1861
Joel Thornton Ferree 1815-1882
Joel A Ferree 1847-1880

rich pierce · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2022, 04:05:38 AM »

There is nothing about this gun that resembles American work of the late 1700s. It would not matter whether it was proposed that it was made by American gunsmiths named J Ferree or J Dickert or J Schreit or J Bonewitz or JP Beck, folks who have studied colonial and federal period American guns could not see architectural or stylistic reasons to suppose this gun was made here. So, all it has going for it, in regards to a link to America in the late 1700s, is a name engraved on it that is the same as a couple of important makers of Pennsylvania longrifles.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2022, 07:41:13 AM »

The engraved name and town do not have any contrasting residue, rust or dirt in them. There are bright highlight from the cuts indicating a clean, new surface; whether it is a highly cleaned old surface or a newly cut face is not possible to determine. I would just like to say that when JTR speaks, you would be wise to listen. He is now retired, but once was a top level collector of fine pieces and a spectacular restorer. I support his position on this one. What are your credentials?
Dick

Feltwad · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2022, 11:29:27 AM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on March 16, 2022, 06:24:43 PM

French or possibly Belgian. I have seen many of these over the years. The barrels are removed by removing the ram rod then pulling out a collar inside of the rear ram rod pipe.

Sir I think this is the type of wedge of French sxs flint and percussion guns you mentioned
Feltwad

smart dog · « **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2022, 04:37:24 PM »

Hi Guys,
Another thing odd about this gun is the cheek piece. It looks like one you might find on an American or Germanic rifle but I've not seen anything like it on French-made guns.

dave

Feltwad · « **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2022, 06:01:49 PM »

Quote from: smart dog on March 17, 2022, 04:37:24 PM

Hi Guys,
Another thing odd about this gun is the cheek piece. It looks like one you might find on an American or Germanic rifle but I've not seen anything like it on French-made guns.

dave

I agree I still think it is a late re built with different period parts
Feltwad

Bob Roller · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2022, 03:18:26 PM »

That fast release of the barrels could make a set up for a fast barrel change with an extra set of ready to go loaded.
The area behind the locks seems REALLY flimsy to me.
Bob Roller

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Author Topic: Can anyone ID this double flint gun (Read 2787 times)