Author Topic: English sporting rifle  (Read 3303 times)

Offline smallpatch

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English sporting rifle
« on: March 22, 2022, 07:29:20 PM »
Ok, with everyone showing their English sporting rifles/Fowler, I wanna build one.
All the drawings I can find are of percussion guns. Obviously, I want to build a flinders.

Any input (Taylor), drawings, lock, barrel, hardware, etc?
Any help greatly appreciated!
In His grip,

Dane

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2022, 08:58:08 PM »
Dane:  funny you should mention this.  I have never built an English sporting rifle in flint - I know, inconceivable!  But I currently have on my bench, a Hawken rifle I built in the 70's for a friend who is 6'9" tall and now nearly 90 years old.  He asked me to sell his two Hawken rifles, both of which I built and both of which have 16" lop's.  I now have sold them both, coincidentally to the same fellow, and he like me, is a mere mortal at around 6' tall.  So I am in the process of rebuilding the rifle with a 14" lop.  This rifle, built during the first formative years of my "Carreer" has some features that are regrettable, namely some brass furniture, a Siler flintlock and a big brass patchbox.  I have cut the butt stock for the new plate at 14" lop, removed the patchbox and will build a new one to cover the inlet of the old, and I'm replacing the lock with a Davis Twigg flintlock.  So it's approaching an English Sporting rifle style, but with a gaudy American patchbox.  This rifle, and the first one he bought from me, both have Tonjes .60 cal barrels on them.  The first rifle, I bobbed at 32", cutting off the muzzle, replacing the under rib etc.  The flint rifle, I am not going to cut the muzzle off unless I have to, so we're going to shoot it first to establish a base line for accuracy.  The percussion rifle that I bobbed, shoots easily into a one hole group at 50 yards off a bench, so I don't think we lost any of the inherent accuracy of Hugh's barrel, but now we'll never know.  This flint rifle has never been fired since I shot it to regulate the sights back when it was new, and I have no recollection of the rifle's potential from those days.  But we'll find out soon enough when we test it.
So it comes down to a description of this rifle:  is it a flint Hawken, a Hawken inspired flint rifle, or is it an English sporting rifle with American influence?  Film at 11!
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2022, 09:03:51 PM »
I've probably done a dozen of those over the years.  When I get back to my desk top I'll post some pictures. Of course  there are drastic differences between 1760 guns and 1820 guns. I have done all 1760 to 80 stuff. All full stocked, using jeager type barrels. They make superb hunting rifles.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2022, 09:20:44 PM »
Hi Dane,
Here is a mid 18th century English rifle that is almost done.  I am still whiskering the stock and have to finish the carving and silver wire inlay.  All of the silver inlays are lightly pressed in place and not permanently attached and the screws all need to be fully countersunk and finished off.  The problem with early to mid 18th century sporting rifles, when round faced locks would have been used, is there are so few English examples.  The best photographed example is the Turvey rifle in RCA 1.  This rifle is based on the Turvey and another in a private collection.  The side plate is inspired by James Freeman and the thumb plate is inspired by Henry Delaney. 
   












The barrel is a 31" Rice jaeger barrel in 62 cal.  The breech is 1.125" across and I wish it was closer to 1.25" but it works fine.  The lock is a Chambers round-faced English lock that I shortened to 5.75"  I wish the Chambers lock was smaller (5 5/8")  because it would fit so many more guns and still be suitable for the ones it is typically used on now. Notice that the lock is cocked just a little down to the rear so it fits the wrist dimensions better.  The butt plate is a steel "Dubbs" long rifle plate completely worked over and with a little extra steel welded to the toe.  The guard is from Chambers and the pipes are the generic cast steel fowler pipes sold by companies like TOW.  The hook tang and breech (standing breech) was made from the old English fowler breech sold by TOW for 1 1/8" barrel and which is no longer available.  I welded on an under lug for the cross pin on the bottom.  TRS usually has some of these standing breeches available and unlike the others, they are made correctly with that under lug.  The ramrod is ash with a buffalo horn tip.  The stock design is adapted from the rifles I mentioned and is perfect for my build.  It just comes up and locks perfectly in place on my shoulder. 

So Dane, that gun represents early-mid 18th century British styles. Those styles changed during the second half of the century and by 1800 much had changed.  Round-faced locks were not used on high-end guns (and English rifles were not made for poor boys) after about 1760-1765.  Flat faced locks were the fashion and they gradually got smaller as the century progressed.  In conjunction, as the locks got smaller, the lock panel flats around them got larger.  Carving was largely absent but checkering and extensive engraving became the norm.  Moreover, half stocked gun dominated by 1800.  Stocks changed such that the baluster wrist was abandoned but the fit to the body remained the same.  Hre is the rifle I built for Tony Lalli.  It represents an early 19th century British flintlock rifle.  Compare it to the previous gun and the differences are apparent.  The 34" 54 cal tapered barrel was from FCI, the lock is by Davis but completely rebuilt, the stock is English walnut from Ron Scott, the guard is from TOW and the butt plate is from an original English gun from the period. The chambered hook breech was made from 4440 steel by my machinist neighbor and me.
     























Hope this helps.

dave
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Offline Daryl

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2022, 11:03:05 PM »
That 1/2 stock flinter is a wonderful rifle, Dave. Absolutely delightful.
I also really like that 6 bore on the rack of 3 English Flintlock Rifles. Now that would rock while making my 14 bore feel like a squirrel rifle.
I have shot squirrels with the 14 bore, BTW, with single solid shot.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smallpatch

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2022, 05:03:23 AM »
David,
The second one is kinda what I had in mind.
I have a Purdey drawing, and like the style. Of course it’s percussion. I guess I can use that for dimensions.
Do you know the spec’s on that barrel? I need to get one in th works. I guess a .54 or .58cal. Most available are either 31 or 32” Jaeger, or 37 or 38”, with nothing in between.
Let me know what you can remember.
Thanks guys, keep them coming.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline alacran

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2022, 02:54:42 PM »
Hey Dane,
You might want to call Ed Rayl. He has a wide variety of Jaeger patterns. Probably has some English patterns too. I bought a 25-inch barrel from him a couple of years ago. He said it was a Pistor pattern. Gun is almost done.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2022, 02:58:02 PM »
Hi Dane,
The barrel was either 1 1/6" or 1" at the breech tapering to 15/16" at the muzzle.  It is a little long for most rifles of that time so 31-32" would be fine.  Swamped is fine too.  It is not hard to fit a steel rib to a swamped barrel but I would recommend tapering the rib toward the muzzle.  I used Taylor's staking method for attaching the rib but soldering is fine too. Dane, If you don't intend to build a lock from TRS or Chris Hirsch part sets, I urge you to consider either Chambers late Ketland or Jim Kibler's late flint.  They are both superb locks.  However, they are styled after trade or export locks of the late 18th and early 19th centuries not high end sporting gun locks. If I built another late flint English rifle with a commercially made lock, I probably would by Chambers' or Kibler's and see if I could file a shallow gutter between the back edge of the pan and the pan fence, and dress up the pan bridle a little.  I might also weld a little steel to the toe of the frizzen to bring the curl around a little further. Those little changes would really make a difference in appearance.  There is no need to enhance performance because they are good locks right out of the box.  For triggers, an English shotgun trigger works very well and don't be eager to get any trigger and trigger plate assembly.  Get a single trigger that can be pinned high in the stock and a separate plate. I am afraid none of the cast scroll guards and trigger plates have very good "pineapple" finials.  They all seem to have these ugly, skinny, shrunken blobs that the suppliers call "pineapples".  I made my own and a convenient feature on these rifles is there is a front screw holding on the front finial which threads into the bottom of the standing breech, shown below.
       





That screw replaces the lug and cross pin used on earlier British guns and provides very strong attachments for both the tang and the trigger guard.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline heinz

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2022, 03:59:46 PM »
Smart Dog, thanks for posting those photos.  I have thought about doing that with front TG screw,  now I will try it. 
kind regards, heinz

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2022, 04:06:30 PM »
The high end of any lock is the mechanism.
Bob Roller

Offline smallpatch

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2022, 06:10:05 PM »
Dave,
That lock looks like a Davis late English lock. How much work is involved making it work?
I have a Kibler here, but I really like the look of the Davis. What do you think?
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Herb

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2022, 07:00:22 PM »
Here are a .58 fullstock flint Hawken I built and an English Sporting Rifle with a 31 inch .54 Rice Jaeger barrel. the rifle made by a mortal. 




Herb

Offline Daryl

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2022, 08:41:37 PM »
Here is one Dan built.  I think it is important to see that flintlock 1/2 stock Sporting Rifles generally had longer forends and 2 keys
as compared to 1/2 stocked cap lock rifles, having shorter forends and 1 key or wedge.

This was shown in the panel of 3 flint English guns, 2 of which are 1/2 stocked.









Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smart dog

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2022, 02:04:11 AM »
Hi Dane,
The link below discusses what I did to the Davis lock.  It can be made into a good lock representing the quality of British locks at the time, but it takes some work.  I made a new mainspring, curved the face of the frizzen and ultimately soled it with high carbon steel to add mass.  I had to work over the frizzen spring so that the toe of the frizzen was centered on the roller rather than pushing it out from the side. If you are willing to do the lock work, the Davis lock will be fine. The  Davis lock on my gun is very close to good British work.  The other link shows you some photos of my work on Tony's rifle and may be helpful to you.

dave
 
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53413.0

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=51335.msg510015#msg510015
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2022, 03:26:50 AM »
Thanks Dave,
I may have to go with the Kibler. Sounds like a lot less trouble.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2022, 04:54:26 AM »
I have that Davis late English lock on my 62 Manton inspired rifle. Like Dave said it took a little adjusting but it really does work good now. The same frizzen spring problem and the frizzen does not flop over as far as I would like and it somewhat gets in the way when you want to prime the pan. It is fast and easy on flints.

Online Curtis

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2022, 08:18:02 AM »
Here are some photos of an Staudenmayer English sporting gun I finished a couple years back.  Interchangeable faux damascus barrels.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59417.0

Curtis
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Offline smart dog

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2022, 02:48:24 PM »
Hi,
Curtis' great rifle is a nice comparison with my late flint rifle above.  They represent two styles that were popular in the early 19th century.  On mine note the prominent comb and very tall butt plate.  On Curtis' note the lower comb and how it merges with the wrist with a smaller step.  Many also had smaller butt plates making the butt stock narrower.  That was a popular style that carried over from the end of the 18th century into the 19th.  Here is another example.

Note the long comb and short wrist on this gun.  These styles probably represent 90% of the British rifles made between 1790-1830 and if you remove the cheek piece, that doubles for fowlers as well.  Thanks for posting that rifle Curtis because I think it helps cover a lot of ground that Dane can use.

dave     




« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 02:53:25 PM by smart dog »
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2022, 05:53:39 PM »
Thanks sooooooooo much Dave and Curtis.
Much needed input. Got feelers out for a barrel, and some wood.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2022, 05:08:09 PM »
Should your build focus on a Rifles in the style of  Staudenmayer, I may be able to locate the group of photos and notes from the Seminar at Bowling Green 2018. This original once belonged to Lynton McKenzie and was documented by Joe Valentin several years ago.

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: English sporting rifle
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2022, 05:14:25 PM »
After a moments reflection, I recalled that Ed Rayl made our barrels based on dimension from the original Staudenmayer. The sheet metal under rib were sourced from Mike Lea. Chambers Late Ketland lock provided our ignition. As Smart Dog indicated the trigger guard is an item you likely will have to doe some fabrication on. English Walnut stock blanks were sourced from my inventory.