Kibler Hawken kit

[alacran]

Living out West, for the last 30 years, I appreciate the the Hawken even more, Than the first TC I put together when I lived in Florida.
The practicality and ruggedness of the Hawken just fits out here.
The first one I built from a plank was a 39 inch .45 one inch across the flats. It was a heavy beast. It made a great cross sticks rifle. Won a lot of stuff with it
Though I have a couple of 42-to-44-inch barreled guns. I find that guns and rifles with shorter barrels are more practical.
I tend to gravitate to Jaegers now mostly because of their butt profile, which was copied largely by the British Baker rifle, which I also admire.
After I started hunting in the Midwest, I really question why the longer barrels ever became popular.
Most of the hunting with a rifle or smooth bore there consists of ambushing game from tree stands or ground blinds. On a few occasions I have been able to still hunt there. But shots due to the cover seldom exceed 50 yards.  To me anything that has more than a 38 inch barrel is unnecessary for hunting. And that I would consider long.

[Bsharp]

My vote is for an English half stock sporting rifle with or without the pistol grip stock.It can be made for round balls or better yet,a .451 that can launch a 500 grain hollow point for big game and a much faster reload.  have fired several fine repro Hawken rifles and one original,the Hoffman&Campbell (J&S) and owned and shot an original Whitworth Semi Military* match rifle and the difference is like comparing a Chevy Citation to a Town Car.
*A sporting rifle with a military style stock almost full length with barrel bandsThe lock,sights,breech and barrel,butt plate and trigger guard are the same as a sporting rifle.
Bob Roller.

YES,YES,YES!!!!!!!

[Dphariss]

My vote is for an English half stock sporting rifle with or without the pistol grip stock.It can be made for round balls or better yet,a .451 that can launch a 500 grain hollow point for big game and a much faster reload.  have fired several fine repro Hawken rifles and one original,the Hoffman&Campbell (J&S) and owned and shot an original Whitworth Semi Military* match rifle and the difference is like comparing a Chevy Citation to a Town Car.
*A sporting rifle with a military style stock almost full length with barrel bandsThe lock,sights,breech and barrel,butt plate and trigger guard are the same as a sporting rifle.
Bob Roller.

The English sporting rifle is a good idea. I like them and have one in 16 bore. But I think the market would be  limited.  And the long tang Hawken unless the caliber exceeds 58 is a better hunting rifle. Since the English guns were relatively weak in the wrist for teh use a “mountain rifle” was put.
I would much rather have a 400-480 gr patched RB than an 400–500 gr elongated bullet in a ML for hunting. There are reasons that bullets never caught on in hunting rifles back in the day even in Africa and the reasons are still valid. Forsythe, Sir Samuel Baker and even Greener explained this. People who today think such things are needed might look to using a hardened round ball if they think penetration might be an issue. This was what was done back in the day when heavy game, like Elephant for example, was the target. The conical did not come into use for this until the advent of large bore brass suppository guns and MLs were still in use by Europeans in the 1870s and perhaps later.
And note that I have killed quit a few various MT game with RBs (I think around 100) hunted with BPCRs with “naked” and PP bullets and with modern stuff. I understand all of them. The RB works a lot better than the advocates/makers of the various ml bullets like to admit  and within its range is as good as any. So long as the ball size is suitable for the game. And I hunt in “occupied Gbear habitat” at times. Just had a Gbear kill a hiker/horn hunter up the valley from me a couple of days ago. Married with kids. Sad… Bear problems have gotten worse the last few years. They even come to gunshots like they were dinner bells.

[smylee grouch]

I agree 100% with the use of a round ball over some of these so called ML bullets on game. I have said it so many times here and around that the round ball is vastly under rated as a game getter and the writings of those old time heavy game hunters will back this up. Also I like a shorter barrel for the type and area of hunts I do. Traveling from one area to another in a truck and moving through real thick and heavy brush.

[David Rase]

My vote is for an English half stock sporting rifle with or without the pistol grip stock.It can be made for round balls or better yet,a .451 that can launch a 500 grain hollow point for big game and a much faster reload.  have fired several fine repro Hawken rifles and one original,the Hoffman&Campbell (J&S) and owned and shot an original Whitworth Semi Military* match rifle and the difference is like comparing a Chevy Citation to a Town Car.
*A sporting rifle with a military style stock almost full length with barrel bandsThe lock,sights,breech and barrel,butt plate and trigger guard are the same as a sporting rifle.
Bob Roller.

YES,YES,YES!!!!!!!

Rod England already has you guys covered if it an English sporting rifle you want.  His Alexander Henry is top shelf.  The only drawback is that you need to have some gunmaking skills to pull off one of his rifles vs a Kibler kit, where all you need to do is shake the box and the rifle practically assembles itself.
David

[Stoner creek]

My vote is for an English half stock sporting rifle with or without the pistol grip stock.It can be made for round balls or better yet,a .451 that can launch a 500 grain hollow point for big game and a much faster reload.  have fired several fine repro Hawken rifles and one original,the Hoffman&Campbell (J&S) and owned and shot an original Whitworth Semi Military* match rifle and the difference is like comparing a Chevy Citation to a Town Car.
*A sporting rifle with a military style stock almost full length with barrel bandsThe lock,sights,breech and barrel,butt plate and trigger guard are the same as a sporting rifle.
Bob Roller.

YES,YES,YES!!!!!!!

Rod England already has you guys covered if it an English sporting rifle you want.  His Alexander Henry is top shelf.  The only drawback is that you need to have some gunmaking skills to pull off one of his rifles vs a Kibler kit, where all you need to do is shake the box and the rifle practically assembles itself.
David

Correct. We can’t really call this a “build” because it’s not. I call it an assembly process. What you do after the kit is assembled is where the rubber meets the road. The devil is in the details. Finish work is the most time consuming part of Kiblers kits unless you choose to carve up and add a patchbox to a Colonial. The mountain rifle is super simplistic. Not much deep though required.

[Bob Roller]

Rod England seems to have a good kit if he followed Don Brown's lead.He asked me bout locks but I was already shutting the lock line down after finishing orders from Europe.Don did not  like my locks for some reason but wanted one for his own rifle.
Today while looking for a small tool I uncovered a disassembled high end left hand English percussion rifle lock.I don't know if it's all there or not but if I don't forget,I will see about it.My short term memory is not good and I say it's like a  V12 engine running on 4 cylinders.
SO! Lest I forget,both Barbie Chambers and I have birthdays tomorrow and we all should wish HER a very happy one.She has had some bad medical issues to contend with and I have had none beyond feeble mindedness so concentrate on her and not me.I think she is in the mid 40's and I will be 86.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

My vote is for an English half stock sporting rifle with or without the pistol grip stock.It can be made for round balls or better yet,a .451 that can launch a 500 grain hollow point for big game and a much faster reload.  have fired several fine repro Hawken rifles and one original,the Hoffman&Campbell (J&S) and owned and shot an original Whitworth Semi Military* match rifle and the difference is like comparing a Chevy Citation to a Town Car.
*A sporting rifle with a military style stock almost full length with barrel bandsThe lock,sights,breech and barrel,butt plate and trigger guard are the same as a sporting rifle.
Bob Roller.

YES,YES,YES!!!!!!!

Rod England already has you guys covered if it an English sporting rifle you want.  His Alexander Henry is top shelf.  The only drawback is that you need to have some gunmaking skills to pull off one of his rifles vs a Kibler kit, where all you need to do is shake the box and the rifle practically assembles itself.
David

Correct. We can’t really call this a “build” because it’s not. I call it an assembly process. What you do after the kit is assembled is where the rubber meets the road. The devil is in the details. Finish work is the most time consuming part of Kiblers kits unless you choose to carve up and add a patchbox to a Colonial. The mountain rifle is super simplistic. Not much deep though required.

Can anyone describe what a "build" is?

[alacran]

Same as a woman.

[James Rogers]

Mike, I think it may come from black gun and Lego slang with younker folk?

[Daryl]

Same as a woman.

LOL - do you have to be a forester as well as a blacksmith?

[Jim Kibler]

My opinion is that a Hawken rifle would fall into the same category as a left handed rifle.  The ROT (return on investment) will never off set the start up costs.  Initial sales would be brisk then taper off to the occasional purchase.  There are many more rifle schools that would appeal to a broader audience.
David

Time will tell how popular a Hawken kit will be.  Based on requests etc. I think it will be one of the biggest if not the biggest seller.  This is surprising to me as well, but I think we need to understand who are customers often are.  They are typically very new to blackpowder and the Hawken name still creates a tremendous amount of interest.  In addition, the longer barrels and flintlocks sometimes scare people off.  We'll see...

Jim

[David Rase]

My opinion is that a Hawken rifle would fall into the same category as a left handed rifle.  The ROT (return on investment) will never off set the start up costs.  Initial sales would be brisk then taper off to the occasional purchase.  There are many more rifle schools that would appeal to a broader audience.
David

Time will tell how popular a Hawken kit will be.  Based on requests etc. I think it will be one of the biggest if not the biggest seller.  This is surprising to me as well, but I think we need to understand who are customers often are.  They are typically very new to blackpowder and the Hawken name still creates a tremendous amount of interest.  In addition, the longer barrels and flintlocks sometimes scare people off.  We'll see...

Jim

I am sure you will analyze all the data  and make the right business decision base off of the information you glean from your client base, as well as future customers.  Wishing you nothing but success.  I am looking forward to teaching the upcoming Washington Historical Gunmakers Guild "Kibler Class" in August.
David
David 

[Dphariss]

Can anyone describe what a "build" is?

Boy do you ask hard questions. I was just thinking of this the other day.
But having worked in a rifle factory once upon a time that really does build guns…
The kibler kits are less a build than the stocks I used to fit at those  brass suppository places in Big Timber (both of them at one time or another). The stocks require less fitting and less shaping. I have no idea how they do or have the stocks cut for these rifles now. But they put in a foundry, the one I worked for last and cast parts on site.
Thus I consider the Kibler’s an assembly. I think that is what he intended and I applaud the effort. I really like them but they are just two designs and its hard to vary them. But they are easier on my back and neck.
Then we have the assembly, gunstocker, gunsmith and gun builder thing. If you are building a swivel breech from bar stock, sheet brass and a stock blank, buying a few odd casting and the barrels, its a build. If your are buying all the metal parts then it gets into the gun stocking and gunsmithing. Which is what most gunsmiths back in the day did. Including the Hawken brothers and most colonial rifles and the SMR. If you are working in the Williamsburg gunsmithy its obviously a build if the parts are all or mostly all made on site.
But the entire question is somewhat nebulous. After all at one time Ruger was buying barrels from suppliers. IHC, Winchester, HRA and Springfield were all using subcontractors at some level to build service rifles in WW-II and the Cold War.
So thats my opinion, sorta, that and a couple of bucks or more will get you a coffee or a soda.

[borderdogs]

I am not sure I agree with Jim on "typically very new to blackpowder" that may be true to some extent he knows his customers but there are probably many exceptions. I have liked Hawken rifles since 1972 when they were mentioned in the movie Jeremiah Johnson and started reading about them. But I was shooting muzzleloaders before that my dad got me started and tied their use to history in the 1960's. I was in the Hawken craze in the 70's and into the 80's but I owned and shot many different muzzleloaders. I owned a NY made percussion rifle probably made in the 1850's which was very rugged and practical features I liked in a rifle. That rifle had a lot of similarities to what I though was a Hawken and it was this rifle that got me to build my first muzzleloader in 1979 a Hawken kit. I am sure there are many others that have had similar experiences. If Jim offered a Hawken kit I would want to build one its a style of rifle I like. Even though I like to challenge myself in some of the aspects of the rifles I build his kits speak for themselves and I would prefer this kit style to the others he offers.
Rob 

[Scota4570]

I see no need to mince words about builds and assembly jobs. 

I do know the Kibler kits make an extremely high quality rifle.  I'm out in the hinter lands were there is virtually no culture of rifle builders.  I infer that in the east the culture is much stronger, that may skew opinions from those people.  That said I have not held any modern rifles made from scratch, or parts sets that are as good as Jim's kit guns.  Of course, there is an elite group or artisans that do top quality work, that is not who I mean.  For the semi-skilled shooters and tinkerers, like me, they are unlikely to ever own a better rifle than can be assembled and finished from a Kibler kit.  They fill a definite need. 

There sure is a lot of interest in Hawkin pattern rifles.  I was enamored with owning a near copy of a real late Hawken plains rifle.  I made a  rifle of that pattern from a plank.  It is a chunk of gun.  I shot it once.  It is just to heavy for me to shoot comfortably.  I bet they would sell like hotcakes though.  Original Hawken rifles varied much more than I realized.  I also think that a somewhat lighter version that looks the part  would be more practical while maintaining authentic styling.     Maybe a 1" to 7/8" instead of the 1 1/8" to 1" barrel would be a better choice? 

[Daryl]

Is anyone familiar with the range of Hawken Plains Rifle weights?
If so, do tell. I think the last one Taylor built was in the 11 pound range.

[oldtravler61]

  Daryl I've seen them between 8 1/2 to 13 pounds. Those were all originals. Back in the day the Men were a might tougher .
The overall average was  close to 10 lbs    Oldtravler

[borderdogs]

I have a .58 Kit Carson built by Brant Selb that is exactly 10lbs, a full stock .50 built by Selb is 10 1/2lbs and a full stock .54 I built from a Don Stith parts set is 9 1/2lbs. I am building a St Louis full stock that is only partly but I am betting this will come in between 8 and 9lbs.
Rob

[iloco]

The Kit Carson Hawken is proably one of the lighter of all the Hawkens.   Herb might know how much it weighs. 

[prairieofthedog]

I don't think Jim will have a problem selling them.I sure wish he would do a slimmer full stock,like some of the earlier Hawken Bros. builds.Tapered barrel under 10lbs.Something I actually can carry while hunting.Those half stock Bear clubs have been done to death. I can hope LOL!

[Rajin cajun]

I think that Rifle would be hard for Jim to keep in stock. It would be a great seller.

Bob

[Herb]

The Kit Carson Hawken is proably one of the lighter of all the Hawkens.   Herb might know how much it weighs. 

  I have handled it but don't know its weight.  I estimate it at ten and a half pounds.  I build my copies with a 15/16 x 31 1/8 straight barrel and could still shoot mine last fall at age 88 with a torn right rotator cuff. They weigh about eight pounds.  Now that I have had neck surgery, I am probably done shooting.  My last bench copy of the Bridger Hawken weighs 11 1/4 pounds, like the original.  I can't even lift it onto my bench.
Top is my last Bridger copy.  Second is my first, with a shorter barrel, 10 3/4 pounds, shot it a few thousand times.  Next a 15/16 .54 caliber Carson built with a Pecatonica precarve, a little slim in the butt.  Last another Carson copy I sawed from a blank.  Lines copy the Carson Hawken except for the 15/16 barrel.  This is my favorite build.  It works well to shoot, even in advanced years.

Scota4570 is correct in my view, a lighter rifle closely resembling an original would be easier to use.

[Scota4570]

I made mine along the lines of the Bridger rifle.  The barrel is 1 1/8 to 1", 34", and 54cal.  I weighs 11#.  I just looked at it, I held it up in the off hand shooting position.  I got about a five seconds before a slight tremor started in my left arm.  To be fair I do have an old injury to my left shoulder.  I am sure I would have loved it when I was younger.  I could not imagine carrying it on a hunt now.  It is strange how three pounds of rifle weight is so profound to the handling. 

[Bushfire]

My opinion is that a Hawken rifle would fall into the same category as a left handed rifle.  The ROT (return on investment) will never off set the start up costs.  Initial sales would be brisk then taper off to the occasional purchase.  There are many more rifle schools that would appeal to a broader audience.
David

Time will tell how popular a Hawken kit will be.  Based on requests etc. I think it will be one of the biggest if not the biggest seller.  This is surprising to me as well, but I think we need to understand who are customers often are.  They are typically very new to blackpowder and the Hawken name still creates a tremendous amount of interest.  In addition, the longer barrels and flintlocks sometimes scare people off.  We'll see...

Jim

You bring up a valid point and not just for the reasons you mentioned. My trade gun and long rifle both have 36” barrels. That long or longer is fine for re-enacting and sitting in a treestand but in my part of the world (and yours too I’m sure) we hunt from the ground. A 40” barrel would be a bit of a bear at times trying to push through thick cover or crawl through underbrush as often happens when stalking.

That’s the appeal of Jäger and some hawken rifles in that 30-34” range.