Frizzen Force

[Bushfire]

I've only shot Pedersoli flintlocks up to now, one has been flawless (indian trade gun), the other is ongoing. I received my first custom rifle yesterday which is an Australian Green River leman style rifle with a siler lock. I immediately noticed that I could readily flip the frizzen open and closed with little force. It's not flopping around but to describe it I remember watching the movie the revenant and during the bear attack scene as he grabs the gun the pan is open (with no powder). He simply runs the back of his hand along the barrel and flips the frizze  closed and then proceeds to shoot. It always stood out to me how easily he did that, because there is no way in he'll you could close either of my pedersoli frizzens that easily.

Which is the most correct way? And if thr Pedersoli's are too tight, what can I do to fix the issue? Conversely, if the Green River is too loose what can I do?

I will say one thing, from dry firing it I am happy to see a shower of sparks landing all in the pan fro. The green river as opposed to my Ped jager!

[Marcruger]

Wondering what good it would do with no prime in the pan?  If the frizzen is open, the prime falls out.  Sounds a bit Hollywood, but maybe I am missing something. 

[EC121]

It doesn't take much of a spring to hold the frizzen shut.  It is sometimes called a feather spring.  Plus a polished frizzen foot and spring top will feel even lighter.  A good lock should fire without a spring at all, but the frizzen might break from flying open.  If you are getting sparks, try shooting it before working on it.
    It is hard to say without the lock in hand, but your Pedersoli frizzen should snap open on its own at about 30-40deg. as the flint leaves the frizzen face lower corner.  The spring might be too strong or too high and/or the frizzen foot might be too long or shaped wrong.   

[Birddog6]

First thing up front, if it works correctly, Leave it Alone.  Doesn't matter how hard the
frizzen opens or closes, or the flint hits, etc.,  if it is a Balanced Lock.

I have some that cock pretty hard (Chambers Custom Siler) but it Really sparks

I have a little MG lock that a small child could cock & fire & it sparks like crazy too.

Dif. locks, dif. mechanisms, dif styles, dif hardnesses of frizzens, vs angles & cock thrust, etc.

One thing I will mention tho. DO NOT dry fire the lock without Something hitting the frizzen.
That is a sure fire way of damaging the lock. Always have a flint, wood wedge, eraser, something
to hit on that frizzen when you fire it.  Otherwise you can fracture the Tumbler Shaft & you cannot
See that untilthe damage is done & the lock fails.

[Birddog6]

Wondering what good it would do with no prime in the pan?  If the frizzen is open, the prime falls out.  Sounds a bit Hollywood, but maybe I am missing something.

Takes very little force to hold a pan closed as it is already in the down position.

And no prime in the pan ?  Ask Ken Guy.  We dumped his flashpan out, wiped it clean, & turned the rifle Over & on the 3rd try the rifle fired. 

So don't Ever think because there is no primer in the pan, the rifle is safe. It can fire without pan powder.

[smart dog]

Hi Bushfire,
Pedersoli locks are all over the map with respect to function and quality.  I have repaired, tuned, and completely worked over locks on Pedersoli Blue Ridge rifles, trade guns, Charlevilles, and a lot of Brown Besses.  The force needed to open a frizzen needs to be balanced with the force of the mainspring.  When tuning a lock, I usually start with the force required to open the frizzen being 30-50% of the peak force needed to pull the flint cock back from rest all the way to full cock. Those forces can be measured with a trigger pull scale or a small hand held luggage scale.  I usually want the force to open the frizzen at about 3-4 lbs.  That is the starting point and then the lock geometry and my experience takes it from there. Yes, a good lock will produce sparks with no frizzen spring but not for many consecutive shots.  The frizzen must put up sufficient resistance to the flint so that the flint scrapes off steel shards producing spark even after the flint dulls and the frizzen gets filthy from fouling.  Siler locks generally have good strong frizzen and mainsprings.  Hopefully, whoever made your gun did not mess with the mainspring like he may have with the frizzen spring.  If it feels really weak when opening the frizzen, your only solution  is to replace the frizzen spring or heat it red hot and open up the bend a little to strengthen it.  That means you have to reharden and temper it.  Hardening requires heating it to bright red (not orange) and quenching in a light oil like canola oil.  Then it has to be tempered so it does not shatter when bent.  That requires heating it to 700-750 degrees F for at least 30 minutes.  I do it for 1 hour but that may be overkill.  Plunking it on molten lead heated to 700 in a lead pot will work well.  Another but less reliable tempering solution is to cover the spring with motor oil and flame it outside until the oil burns off.  Another method is to polish it bright, then heat it very slowly with a propane torch until it turns indigo blue, then keep heating and watch very closely as it turns light sky blue.  Stop heating at that point and let it air cool slowly.

dave 

[galudwig]

Wondering what good it would do with no prime in the pan?  If the frizzen is open, the prime falls out.  Sounds a bit Hollywood, but maybe I am missing something.

Takes very little force to hold a pan closed as it is already in the down position.

And no prime in the pan ?  Ask Ken Guy.  We dumped his flashpan out, wiped it clean, & turned the rifle Over & on the 3rd try the rifle fired. 

So don't Ever think because there is no primer in the pan, the rifle is safe. It can fire without pan powder.

Excellent point. How many times have we seen references to plugging the vent on a flintlock with a feather (or now a toothpick) to prevent an errant spark from finding the main powder charge. Why did military arms use hammer stalls and why are they still relevant and in use today? Most states consider removing prime from the pan means that the firearm, by definition, is unloaded. However, that does not mean that it is safe. The owner has the responsibility to take additional steps to make it so. Not firing an unprimed lock while there is a charge in the barrel is just one of the basic rules of safety to follow when it comes to flintlocks.

Everyone loves to criticize that scene from the "Revenant." However, put yourself in that situation. You just had a 500 lb. grizzly sow blindside you. Before you could get off a shot with your "never fails to fire" flinter, she knocks you to the ground, chews on you a bit, then decides you taste bad. You notice your loaded rifle laying on the ground nearby, but alas, the frizzen is open. You reach for the rifle and the movement attracts the bear's attention and she renews her attack. Do you A) reach for your horn and reprime, or B) close the frizzen and pray an errant spark from "Old Reliable" finds its way to the main powder charge (through a touch hole that its likely oversized to begin with due to constant use)? Chances of the gun going off; 50/50. In that situation, I'm betting most people would take those odds.

Of course, it always works out in Hollywood. The "Revenant" would have been a much shorter movie otherwise! 

As for your original question, frizzen spring strength is not so much the issue as what is the frizzen doing once struck. Is it rebounding hard enough to break a flint or is it staying open with little rebound after the prime ignites? IMHO, that is what you really need to focus on. There are ways to adjust the frizzen spring strength to prevent excessive rebound and ways to live with the rebound and prevent flint breakage. I'm sure those who are well versed in those methods will add to the conversation.

[Jim Filipski]

Remember the Frizzen spring was called the "Feather Spring" just enough force to hold the pan shut!
When the cock falls and the flint hits the frizzen it should be one continuous movement...there should be no hesitation once the flints starts to rub the face of the frizzen. I adjust my spring so if I fire the lock in my hand I only feel one continuous movement if there is any evidence of 2 ..I thin the spring some more!

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
I believe you are completely wrong and that reasoning is why so many have screwed up their locks.  You will not find any example of what you described on original locks that are still in almost pristine condition.  I have rescued so many reeanctors who followed that advice and they all came to realize how wrong it was.  One problem is that most modern flintlock shooters have never experienced a quality lock that 18th and 19th century shooters took for granted. 

dave

[Jim Filipski]

Very Sorry smart dog.... But this is how I have built firelocks since 1983!
I will continue! I have never heard anything but complements on my builds! Each to his own

[heinz]

Dave, thanks for posting your frizzen and frizzen spring techniques.  Those are essentially the same techniques I was given by Art Holly about 55 years ago.  You wrote it up more clearly than I could have.

I believe as many locks work poorly because their frizzens are too hard as do because they are too soft. Although I usually left mine at blue.  Now Just use Rollers or Kiblers and do not mess with them.

[Birddog6]

The white lightening vent line it great & I use them often.  However it is not just a simple change, as
the white lightening liner is a non-replacable liner, and yours most likely screws out by screwdriver
slot or allen wrench.  If by the last two mentioned, I would mod them before changing it over to a
chamber vent liner. I can send you some photos of simple mods to them to increase the reliability.

[heinz]

Bushfire, a little hint for the flinch.  When you are at the range, use a dull flint and light priming.  The fail-to-fires make wonderful practice for your follow through.   And the paper won't run off while you reset

[smart dog]

Hi Bushfire,
A lot of folks flinch not so much because of the flash or anticipation of the charge going off but because of all the movement by the flint cock and frizzen.  A good practice is to cut a hardwood flint so you can dry fire your rifle many times without wasting flint or frizzen. Set a small target on a wall and aim at it and dry fire your rifle.  I do that that frequently in my house to practice off hand shooting and follow through during months when I cannot shoot outside very much.

With respect to frizzen force, a typical scenario in my shop is someone, usually a reenactor, comes in saying their frizzen won't open all the way when fired. Sometimes they say they tried longer flints and it did not help plus the edges of the flint got knapped badly.  Then they relate how they ground the frizzen spring thinner and that did not help.  Worse, some of them ground down the foot of frizzen.   I work the frizzen, which has a spring so weak I can flick the frizzen open with a snap of my index finger.  I ask if they ever considered the frizzen is rebounding.  They always say no because they've never seen it rebound.  So we do a little test by placing a piece of masking tape on the feather (frizzen) spring where the curl of the frizzen will hit it when fully open. Then I fire the lock and lo and behold there is a little dimple in the tape showing the frizzen opened all the way and bounced back. Usually, the guy is completely surprised at the result.  Then I go and anneal the spring, open the bend, and harden and temper it and test that it requires about 3-4 lbs to open.  I repeat the process until I am about there and when we test the lock, the frizzen opens all the way producing a nice shower of sparks and the problem is solved.  I don't know what it is about reenactors and their Pedersoli Besses and Charlevilles because those seem to be the most frequent folks I work with with weak frizzen springs and I know that was not likely the case when the gun was new.

dave

[Ron Scott]

Dave,  I have noticed a similar propensity of guys reducing the frizzen spring tension. . When asked, a frequent reply is that they felt the flint should have lasted longer. Flints aren't so expensive that ignition need  be compromised. It would be interesting if Larry Pletcher could be enticed to run an analysis using a single lock, with interchangeable springs of different tensions. I would be very interested in the quantity and heat of sparks from various spring balances. I would anticipate that the very low tension frizzen spring will yield fewer sparks.

[Prairie dog shooter]

"And no prime in the pan ?  Ask Ken Guy.  We dumped his flashpan out, wiped it clean, & turned the rifle Over & on the 3rd try the rifle fired. 

So don't Ever think because there is no primer in the pan, the rifle is safe. It can fire without pan powder"

A friend of mine has a 36 caliber hole in his pool table proving this!

[Jim Filipski]

The method of tuning a flintlock I use was taught by Keith Casteel at the Dixon Gunmake's Fair Seminars starting in 1984. Keith always did a great presentation.
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

I'm with Smartdog.  I see strong and reasonably balanced springs as a very good thing.  We've been pushing the strength of our lock springs and I believe the results are nothing but positive.  Lock speed is very much related to spring strength.  If flints are being broken, it's probably due to some other issue such as frizzen bounce back.  That is, as long as the frizzen is hardened properly and the proper lock geometry is present from the outset.

Jim

[smart dog]

Hi Bushfire,
Jim Kibler's locks are superb and I hope you get to experience that.

dave

[Jim Filipski]

I just wanted to mention;  I did not say to reduce the force of the main spring! That would indeed slow down the lock......However there is no need for a frizzen spring to be so strong that it has to be pushed hard to start the frizzen moving ( Which slows down a locks speed) It just needs to be one continuous smooth motion and that makes a lock fast.
Even with some of the best locks we have for sale today, we are dealing with machine made springs. When gunsmiths made the springs for their locks the springs were tuned from experience.
I believe that the tuning of the frizzen toe and the frizzen spring is important..... If you know what you are doing.
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

I just wanted to mention;  I did not say to reduce the force of the main spring! That would indeed slow down the lock......However there is no need for a frizzen spring to be so strong that it has to be pushed hard to start the frizzen moving ( Which slows down a locks speed) It just needs to be one continuous smooth motion and that makes a lock fast.
Even with some of the best locks we have for sale today, we are dealing with machine made springs. When gunsmiths made the springs for their locks the springs were tuned from experience.
I believe that the tuning of the frizzen toe and the frizzen spring is important..... If you know what you are doing.
Jim

As others have suggested, sufficient frizzen spring force is necessary to maximize sparking.   Look at what the best English makers did in the late flint period and you'll find what's best.

Jim

[Jim Filipski]

Ok, This is going to be my last post in this thread... Either you guys are not understanding how I'm tuning my locks ....Or you think your way is the only right way; But in the past 39 years I have never did a build where my tuning process did not produce a sufficient amount of sparks and my tuned locks are very fast! I just hope you all are misunderstanding the process.
Jim

[Darkhorse]

There is another reason to tune the frizzen and spring than broken flints. A few years ago I built a rifle with a Large Siler purchased from Mr. Chambers. I was having a hard time reaching my normal accuracy so I set out to discover the problem and fix it. It turned out the frizzen spring was too strong and when the flint hit the frizzen it would noticably jar the entire rifle before opening.
I ended up with the frizzen opening between 3.5 and 4 pounds, and no more for my shooting. There is no more jarring of the rifle and it now is a really smooth and accurate shooter. This was my .40 caliber I built for hunting turkeys (legal in my state).
So after shooting enough to prove the process to me I applied the same fix to my .54 deer rifle. It too has a large Siler and even though I could not determine how much if any the heavy frizzen was affecting my shooting, I do know that now I shoot both rifles much better than before.