Advice please: Kibler stock drop and fit for tall shooters?

[msquared]

I am close to ordering a Kibler.  I'm leaning toward a Colonial due to historical  and caliber preferences.  However, I've never had an opportunity to actually handle the Colonial and SMR.   Does one lend itself better to taller shooters?   I'm 6' 2" with long arms and neck.  I'm not so much concerned about LOP, but moreso stock drop.   I find with some rifles that I really have to crane my neck down uncomfortably to get behind the sights.  FWIW, I shoot from the shoulder pocket.  Thanks!

[Stoner creek]

I’m 6’4” and the Colonial shoulders up pretty nice. I have found the 50 and on occasion the 54 to be a tad heavy. The 58 is a peach 🍑!

[Seth Isaacson]

My friend and coworker has a .50 caliber Colonial, and I'm about 6' 2" 185 lbs and have a tough time finding long sleeve shirts that fit well unless going with a "tall." His rifle fits me just fine.

[Hunterdude]

I am 6'6" tall, and can scratch my ankles without bending over.
I have a Kibler SMR and can sight down the barrel Very comfortable...Its quite impressive how well it fits really. I credit the drop at butt stock. Most modern unmentionable rifles I have to scrunch my neck and smash my check to try to get a sight picture. I love the SMR fit.
   

[msquared]

I am 6'6" tall, and can scratch my ankles without bending over.

LOL!!!    My son is also 6' 6".  Figuring he'll have the rifle someday, that's a consideration too. 

[msquared]

My friend and coworker has a .50 caliber Colonial, and I'm about 6' 2" 185 lbs and have a tough time finding long sleeve shirts that fit well unless going with a "tall." His rifle fits me just fine.

I also go with Tall shirts and 36-37" sleeves in dress shirts.  My Lyman GPR has the same  2 3/4" drop as the Colonial, although much taller aftermarket sights.   I've hunted that for over 30 years and that fits pretty well with only a little neck scrunching.  But, I do notice the neck scrunching a lot more as I get older and stiffer!

[msquared]

I’m 6’4” and the Colonial shoulders up pretty nice. I have found the 50 and on occasion the 54 to be a tad heavy. The 58 is a peach 🍑!

Interesting.   I was thinking .54 because it's lighter and reportedly better balanced than smaller calibers.  How's the kick with the .58?

[Hunterdude]

However, the SMR with its deep crescent butt plate is fired a bit differently and not from the breast pocket. This video explains it pretty well.

[Stoner creek]

I’m 6’4” and the Colonial shoulders up pretty nice. I have found the 50 and on occasion the 54 to be a tad heavy. The 58 is a peach 🍑!

Interesting.   I was thinking .54 because it's lighter and reportedly better balanced than smaller calibers.  How's the kick with the .58?

 Target load (65-75 grains fffg) not bad at all. Kill ‘em hunting load (90-110 grains fffg) doesn’t hurt but you know that you’re dancing with the big dogs.
 Yes I’m shooting fffg. It’s all that I was ever cozy with and it works well too.
 I shoot fffg in both of my 60 cal Brennan guns. Not boasting Ben.

[Rwnblack]

I am 6’ 2” and built a Kibler Colonial 58 cal this Christmas and it fits perfectly.  I love this rifle.  Love the SMR I assembled last year to.  Order soon, prices go up 5% on April 1st... worth every penny, however.

[msquared]

I am 6’ 2” and built a Kibler Colonial 58 cal this Christmas and it fits perfectly.  I love this rifle.  Love the SMR I assembled last year to.  Order soon, prices go up 5% on April 1st... worth every penny, however.

Pretty wood!   Yes, definitely want to order before the 1st.  Do you see a difference between the fit of the two models with their different architecture and drops? Does one fit better for you?   Ideally, I'd like my eye to naturally align with the sights without having to cram my head down to find them.

[Rwnblack]

They are very different but both fit very well.  I shot the SMR in all of our muzzleloading events last year and enjoyed it.  I am looking forward to doing the same with the Colonial this year.   I am going to have a hard time picking a favourite!  I will have to shoot them over and over again until I make up my mind 

[Daryl]

I am 6'6" tall, and can scratch my ankles without bending over.
I have a Kibler SMR and can sight down the barrel Very comfortable...Its quite impressive how well it fits really. I credit the drop at butt stock. Most modern unmentionable rifles I have to scrunch my neck and smash my check to try to get a sight picture. I love the SMR fit.
 

I just had to chuckle reading your post.  The jail Pshycologist where I used to work always referred to my riot squad members, knuckle draggers.

[Hunterdude]

I’m 6’4” and the Colonial shoulders up pretty nice. I have found the 50 and on occasion the 54 to be a tad heavy. The 58 is a peach 🍑!

Interesting.   I was thinking .54 because it's lighter and reportedly better balanced than smaller calibers.  How's the kick with the .58?

 Target load (65-75 grains fffg) not bad at all. Kill ‘em hunting load (90-110 grains fffg) doesn’t hurt but you know that you’re dancing with the big dogs.
 Yes I’m shooting fffg. It’s all that I was ever cozy with and it works well too.
 I shoot fffg in both of my 60 cal Brennan guns. Not boasting Ben.

Wayne knows what he is talking about, the 58 caliber is widely considered the best "handling" of the Kibler Colonial series. The smaller bore Colonial's although not true bench rest weight rifles, might shine a tad more on the bench, the 58 shines more in offhand shooting.

Another thing to consider: these are premium desirable kits, if you find that the rifle you order only fits you 95% as well as you hoped? Save the shipping container the kit came in, you will not have trouble getting your kit purchase price out of it... and perhaps a few hundred more if your wood and metal finish turn out well. Just pointing out your not stuck with it forever if you don't want to be.

[oldtravler61]

  Knowing Wayne I bet he could shoot a deck gun from the shoulder an not care about recoil...  LOL
 I've always used 3 f in my guns an no problems. Including priming. But I've never used over a hundred grains of powder either. Dead is dead.  Oldtravler

[Dphariss]

Handling and balance.
Rifles are not generally built to “handle” if “handling” was a criteria they would be stocked like a fine Purdey shot gun with 24-26” light barrel. Now a short barreled rifle is handy and it will swing faster than a long barreled rifle. But rifles are generally not designed for wing shooting and a rifle that swings nicely is not a good offhand rifle.
The American rifle of the period prior to the American Civil War was designed to get best use of powder and lead. As a result it was longer barreled and generally significantly smaller bored than their English or Continental cousins. Most surviving FL rifles we see in various books with caliber listed are 50 caliber and under even though some had as much as 100 years of service behind them.
The modern hunter, being generally flabby and out of shape values lightness. Then they wonder why they can only hit something if shooting from a rest.
As moderns ourselves with, so far, easily obtained  powder and lead and more importantly spare cash to buy it with, we do not worry about bore size. But the powder I shoot is getting pretty pricey now and I really don’t need a 50-54 for the matches I shoot. So maybe I should stock up that 40 cal barrel I have out in the shop.
Now if I were hunting Cap Buffalo in Africa or Tigers in India I would want something that was shorter and handier that fit so the sights were well aligned with the rifle came to the shoulder.  But I have not hunted anything in Elephant grass or Bamboo thickets in over 50 years now.

[Dphariss]

I’m 6’4” and the Colonial shoulders up pretty nice. I have found the 50 and on occasion the 54 to be a tad heavy. The 58 is a peach 🍑!

Wood density will likely change the weight/balance more than the caliber. Would have to bother to calculate the weight of a .520 rod vs a .6 steel rod to really know. I have a 50 and 54 Colonial right now and the 54 is 1/2 pound+- lighter and I know there is not a 1/2 pound difference in the barrels.

[msquared]

Handling and balance.
Rifles are not generally built to “handle” if “handling” was a criteria they would be stocked like a fine Purdey shot gun with 24-26” light barrel....
...
Now if I were hunting Cap Buffalo in Africa or Tigers in India I would want something that was shorter and handier that fit so the sights were well aligned with the rifle came to the shoulder.  But I have not hunted anything in Elephant grass or Bamboo thickets in over 50 years now.

Point taken.  Agreed that flintlocks don't need to fit like a Purdey.  But, at 56 I'm coming to the reluctant realization that I am more likely to get older than younger.   As a tall shooter with a long neck, I'm starting to notice neck pain from cramming my head down onto stocks that don't fit.  Figuring that whatever I build will be used for a long time to come, and that those issues will become more noticeable,  I'm starting to think that the SMR with its extra drop might be the safer choice.   I'll be traveling and miss Jim's open house in June, or I'd wait to handle his various models then.

[Mike Brooks]

I'm a 3'4" circus midget and they both fit me fine.

[G_T]

I'm 6'1" (or used to be; not measured in a long time). I have a long neck which is more important than height, and wear glasses. I have to scrunch with most any rifle, uncomfortably so with most anything modern. I could use a little more drop on the SMR but it is ok. I did alter the buttstock a bit, and lowered the buttplate a little. So I have a little more drop and a slightly different shape than than the way it ships. Heck, I can't leave anything unmodified! It shoulders (well, arms???) and points pretty nicely for me now. It was OK before the changes. I just like it better now.

Gerald

[Hunterdude]

I agree that neck length is a huge factor, some shooters appear not to even have a neck and there head is just a bump between there shoulders....the opposite is the head/neck looks like a lollipop on a stick, both these extremes will struggle with fit. Most folks in the middle are pretty happy.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It always amazes me how some guys can't get a rifle to fit them without a lot of body manipulation, scrunching, and forcing the face down onto the stock.  Let me suggest that if you stand up straight, address the target with your shoulder, and bring the rifle to your eye rather than the other way around, most longrifles will fit you well.  I am 6'2", wear tall clothing, and am 230 pounds currently, and have a stable full of longrifles most of my own manufacture.  They are all different in architecture with various lop's, drop at comb and heel, barrel length and weight and of course, calibre.  Yet they all fit me perfectly.  I like rifles in the 8 to 10 pound range for offhand shooting, leaning toward the 10 pounds for optimum.  My favourites for offhand are my Virginia rifle (Chambers) in .60 cal and my S. Hawken .62 at 11 pounds.  I shoot 86 gr. of FFg in the Virginia and 127 of FFG in the Hawken, all day without discomfort, and superb accuracy.
I have a Kibler .40 cal SMR and it is a joy to shoot.  A Colonial rifle in .58 cal will be my next acquisition.  I am confident that it will also surpass all my hopes and dreams.

[JHeath]

If you insist on shooting from the shoulder pocket then don't build a rifle with a deep crescent plate. You would never try to shoot a schuetzen rifle with crazy long buttplate hooks from your shoulder pocket, because it is obviously not made for that. Deep crescent plates and scheutzen plates are made for shooting from the upper arm, with the rifle across the body, not pointing outward from the shoulder. That is the classic offhand position for target work or slow deliberate riflery.

Hunterdude's video above explains it correctly.

To me, saying ' I always shoot from the shoulder pocket' is like saying "I always eat with a fork." I eat steak with a fork. I do not eat soup with a fork. Deep crescent plates and schuetzen plates are not for shoulder pockets. Shoot an SMR from the upper arm, across the body. Shoot a fowler with the rifle pointed outward from the shoulder pocket. One is a fork and the other a spoon.

Rifles with crescent plates use a lot more drop. If you try to shoot a flat-plate small-drop stock from the crescent/schuetzen position, you may have to hike up the butt so only the toe is used. Either that or crank your neck down like a heron, as Taylor describes.

I don't understand why this is controversial. Look at a schuetzen plate. No rational person would put that in their shoulder pocket. Shooting from the upper arm is an actual thing. There are plates made so deeply curved, pointed, and/or hooked that shooting them from the upper arm is the obvious purpose of the design.

[Hunterdude]

Hunterdude's video above explains it correct.

I can not take credit for making the Crescent butt plate video, only for sharing it. I believe a forum member made the video and has a YouTube channel called black powder tv.

[msquared]

The video is good and does make sense.  Yesterday,  I was playing around with my old Lyman GPR (side note: I highly recommend the L&R RPL flint lock upgrade).  It also has a hooked buttplate and, yes, without realizing it, it does naturally settle to the upper arm when mounting cross-body offhand.  I'm sure the SMR would do the same.   By contrast, a T/C Hawken holds more to the shoulder pocket.

On the original question of stock drop vs. tall shooters,  I can't agree with the one-size fits all point of view.  Many body types do adapt remarkably well and find a way to shoot any given rifle.  However, with age we also become less flexible and adaptable.   With modern bolt actions, a classic straight stock is considered the ideal by many.   But,  if I bring a classic stocked rifle to my eye and look through the sights or scope, only the toe of the stock is actually on my shoulder.  Most of the butt is above my shoulder. It's the same for my son who is 6' 6".  Most people would say they can shoot any rifle fine and that's likely true, but  many of us giraffes with long necks are scrunching and cramming and adjusting to adapt to the stock without realizing it.      Although many hate them, I find a Monte Carlo comb, or better yet California-style stock, on a bolt action fits much better with the added drop.    Stock fit is a problem for me.  So, I really do appreciate those who have shared their experiences with the Kiblers.  It's very helpful.  Thanks!