Author Topic: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements  (Read 1041 times)

Offline kyridgerunner

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Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« on: March 31, 2022, 11:53:36 PM »
I have a nice Schuetzen style rifle with a 1 inch straight octagon barrel, 1-48 round ball twist. I'd like to start shooting long bullets, old style. I know just enough from reading on these forums that I'd need a fast twist barrel and matching caliber bullet. I read on one thread that Rice makes a 38 cal  fast twist barrel. What would some of you Schuetzen guys recommend to get me started? What caliber barrel, twist rate and what bullet to use. Maybe where  to get the bullet mould also. Any advise would be appreciated.

Online T*O*F

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2022, 04:00:42 PM »
Are you building a new rifle, or adding an interchangeable barrel to the one you have?

You can get a 1" straight octagon barrel blank from Green Mountain in either .38 or .45.  They are black powder cartridge barrels with the appropriate fast twist and rifling for bullets.  I would recommend the .38 because it has substantially less recoil.

You can get a Lyman #2640674 mold for a 38-55.  It's a 330 gr. round nose mold.  Then get a Lee 358-L7 bullet sizer and have it bored out until it's .001-.002 less than bore diameter.  Or you can have someone make you a custom mold and sizer.  Buffalo Arms would be the one's to do that.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Daryl

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2022, 08:04:43 PM »
Ditto! Good advice. As well, you will likely need platinum lined nipples as steel, Beryllium copper and stainless nipples will burn out quickly, which effects accuracy.
When I shot bullets in a faster twist .50 back in the 70's, I had to replace the nipples about once a month. That would be every 4 to 6 trips to the range.
Daryl

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Offline kyridgerunner

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2022, 12:06:43 AM »
T*O*F and Daryl,

Thanks guys. That's exactly the kind of advise I'm looking for. I'll be replacing the 1 inch round ball barrel I'm shooting now.

So Daryl - the faster twist barrels burn out nipples quicker? That's good to know. How about with regular round ball shooting? Can worn out nipples make that much difference in accuracy?

T*O*F - Any shortcuts to that having a resizing mold made. Seems like a lot of work there but I guess if that's what it takes for accuracy at least now I know.

Thanks again.

Online T*O*F

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2022, 12:30:33 AM »
Quote
the faster twist barrels burn out nipples quicker? Can worn out nipples make that much difference in accuracy?
I use a berylium copper nipple in my .38 with no problems because the bullet weight and powder charge are smaller.  However, with a .45 you are shooting a 550 grain bullet and 85 to 100 grains of powder.  You definitely need a platinum nipple for those.  When a regular nipple burns out, accuracy goes to Hades in a handbasket instantly.

Quote
T*O*F - Any shortcuts to that having a resizing mold made. Seems like a lot of work there but I guess if that's what it takes for accuracy at least now I know.
Bullet guns can be expensive.  You still have to lube them too.  A lubrisizer is the way to go if you can find the die in the right size.  Otherwise, using my setup, you have to pan lube them.
Dave Kanger

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Offline kyridgerunner

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2022, 03:14:42 AM »
T*O*F

That's lots of good info you've given me. I may be a little long in the tooth to be starting out on such a complicated and expensive new shooting adventure. I'll have to think a little on this. Might just be wise to stick with shooting roundballs.

Many thanks.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2022, 03:21:41 AM »
A VERY good home-made lube for black powder bullet loads, is 60% BW 40% Vaseline. It is a wonderful lube and works every bit as well as
SPG and Lyman's Black Powder Gold which are very good also in commercial lubes.
Shooting bullets does require different and specialized equipment, if you don't already have such stuff.
When I was shooting bullets, I cut a section of barrel off and made a swage out of it, so using my loading press, I pushed bullets through it to
engrave grooves on the bullets after lubing. Thus these "mechanically fitted" bullets shot VERY well indeed. I used double aperture sights as those
were what I was using in modern gun competitions.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline carpd

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2022, 06:00:46 AM »
Like a lot of things, bullet shooting can get as expensive, or not as you wish.

I must confess that I did buy lots of different bullets both paper patch and grease groove., an adjustable bullet sizer as well as globe sight and a soule sight from Lee Shaver for my 45 cal fast twist barrel.

That being said, Lee has a breech-lock resizer that screws into your regular reloading press that are relatively inexpensive.  They have a lot of "odd" sizes listed as "custom overruns".  I just took the part numbers to my local gun shop and had them order them for about $15 each.  I tried 2 different sizes to get the diameter I needed for both the PP and GG sizes.

It doesn't have to be very expensive.  https://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-bullet-sizing-kit/

Offline kyridgerunner

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2022, 10:08:39 PM »
Carpd: Doing things that way seems a little less daunting. I'll check out those Lee products. Still thinking I'd be better off sticking to shooting round balls in my Schuetzen. Besides that, and after serious consideration,  I rarely have a need, or even a place to shoot much farther than 100 yards. Thanks for all the info and help.

Daryl: would a mixture of 60 BW mixed with Crisco rather than petroleum jelly work the same?

Many thanks guys.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2022, 05:38:09 AM »
That, I do not know. I used Crisco shortening  alone in the 4 square grooves of my .50 bullets back in the 70's and it worked just fine.
Never having to wipe while loading and shooting, even after cease fires to replace targets.
I suspect crisco oil or shortening would work mixed with BW. You will have to figure out what viscosity your rifle likes. More oil, softer lube.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 07:46:42 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline kyridgerunner

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2022, 06:15:56 PM »
Thanks Daryl. I mixed up a batch of BW and Crisco and will give it a try shooting 58 cal minie balls.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2022, 08:55:02 PM »
When i was shooting various designs of Minnie balls from the Zouave and a .58 Hawken rifle, I used straight Crisco Shortening in the grooves.  It worked just fine.
The addition of BW might be good, or not - you will have to try it out & let us know.
BW/Vas. does work for all BL bullet shooting.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2022, 03:29:33 PM »
IF you are going to build a Schuetzen in German style you should check with Pecatonica and see if they can sell you a stock like they made for Helmut Mohr in Germany. I don't know if he ever became operational again after being wiped out in the terrible floods in Western Germany.Do NOT use a drum and nipple for ignition in a bullet gun because the pressures are higher than with a ball.I made locks for Mohr using the L&R plates and hammers and when I stopped lock making in 2019 he had to use the L&R locks again.
About 20 years ago I made a bullet gun with an English style half stock using a Don Brown Alex Henry semi finished and a 1x30 Bob Hoyt octagon 38 and a bullet for a who knows what of 330 grains in pure lead.I made a custom lock for it with a common mechanism like a Hawken.I wish I had kept it.I shot these long bullets a cast and made lube of beeswax/Crisco/mutton tallow in equal amounts on these as well as the 58 caliber hollow base types and sometimes put Crisco in the hollow bases.
Good luck with this project.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 06:32:03 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline kyridgerunner

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2022, 03:14:49 AM »
Thanks Rob,

That's great information. Information I have not been able to find anywhere else. I'm still on the fence about getting into shooting bullets.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2022, 06:26:12 AM »
Nipples, I hear are about $80.00 each. Now, that price is 5 or more years old, now.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Badenpowell

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2022, 04:00:55 PM »
Ridgerunner, Google "long range muzzleloading" or LRML and you will find Web sites and Facebook pages where these guys hang out. They are all shooting bullet guns and their tools and techniques will be very similar to their Schuetzen counterparts.

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2022, 09:55:38 PM »
Thanks Rob,

That's great information. Information I have not been able to find anywhere else. I'm still on the fence about getting into shooting bullets.

I just located my book called "American Schuetzen Rifles"and it is loaded with  fine pictures of fine rifles from all points on the compass.
Some are elaborate German/Swiss and others are an upgraded Hawken with the schuetzen butt plate and good sights.I walk both sides of the road and have a preference for the Eastern rifles,schuetzen or not and for a bullet over a ball.Now at 86 I would prefer the 38 or even the 32 using a 180 grain lubricated bullet.The 451's are frequently long range rifles and use bullets of 500 or more grains and over 70 grains of powder and have the recoil to match.I have seen 32 nd 33 caliber Schuetzen rifles and they will post a good target at 200 yards in the hands of an experienced shooter. I once was but not now.Get a good barrel and lock and triggers and whatever stock wood you like and have at it.
Bob Roller

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2022, 11:52:45 PM »
As a follow up I looked thru my Schuetzen rifle book by Hamilton&Rowe and found a good looking,simple rifle that even I can build.
It os American style with no Swiss style butt plate (Hakenschaftkappe) but a conventional made from silver butt plate and a good looking trigger guard.A simple bar in wood lock,double set triggers and good sights.The caption with the picture says that while it may not look like a schuetzen rifle it was a serious rifle.It was made by Edward Anschutz.To me the only problem will be the good looking silver butt plate and guard.All I can find are steel which is OK to me for the butt plate but no acceptable guards in any material,
Bob Roller

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Entry Level Schuetzen Requirements
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2022, 04:46:26 PM »
I just happen to have a Schuetzen rifle for sale in that big batch of guns I'm selling for the Nailman. Has peep sights, false muzzle and a fast twist barrel. Looks to be a 45-ish caliber. Matte top flat on  the barrel too. Made by some famous shuetzen gun builder who I don't recall right now.
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