Author Topic: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard  (Read 5811 times)

Offline KMac

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Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« on: April 04, 2022, 04:36:18 PM »
I acquired this Tryon full stock a few years ago and was curious if this was possibly an Indian trade piece and or used out west? 
Also was interested what period it was made; 1830 – 1850 is my guess. Any thoughts would be welcome.

It’s a full stock, scroll guard flint but converted to percussion, all in the black with what appears to include original ramrod.
The barrel is octagonal but a large caliber smooth bore and the thickness on the butt of 1 ¾ inch. I have not taken it apart.

I have found a section of a page from Tryon’s catalog celebrating 100 years which includes two similar scroll guard guns (see attached image).
See all attached images…




























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Offline KMac

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2022, 04:42:05 PM »
Barrel Length is 39 1/2 inches from breech to muzzle and total length is 55 1/2 inches.





Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2022, 05:54:19 PM »
That is very cool. Interesting that many folks think the Hawken boys invented plains rifles with English influence, when this and otgrr were a are better examples. What a great gun for going west.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2022, 06:08:06 PM »
That is very cool. Interesting that many folks think the Hawken boys invented plains rifles with English influence, when this and otgrr were a are better examples. What a great gun for going west.
I'd prefer this gun over a hawken any day. Probably lots cheaper too.
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Offline KMac

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2022, 06:34:17 PM »
Forgot to include this...




Offline KMac

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2022, 06:57:24 PM »
Here's the end of the ramrod...




pics upload

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2022, 07:34:50 PM »
Here's the end of the ramrod...




pics upload
Typical end tip for that era on shotguns.
Andover, Vermont

Offline KMac

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2022, 07:43:47 PM »
Thanks Rich - most likely original to the gun it would appear.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2022, 07:52:49 PM »
 The gun obviously started life as a flintlock, unless the lock has been changed. It also looks like a smoothbore, which would make sense with the fowler hardware. This could be an Indian trade gun. Very interesting gun.

Hungry Horse

Offline KMac

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2022, 07:58:08 PM »
I found reference in Hanson's book about scroll guard guns contracts for the indians from 1837 up to the early 1850's by J Henry and Tryon.
Even flints as late as in the 1850's which surprised me.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2022, 08:29:13 PM »
Here's the end of the ramrod...




pics upload
Typical end tip for that era on shotguns.

Missing it's cap.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2022, 09:21:04 PM »
I found reference in Hanson's book about scroll guard guns contracts for the indians from 1837 up to the early 1850's by J Henry and Tryon.
Even flints as late as in the 1850's which surprised me.
Flintlocks remained popular in the far West longer than many would like to admit. There is an S. Hawken fullstock  “Mountain Rifle” in the Smithsonian that was originally flint with a flint “patent” breech. I likely also dates to the 1850s.
I suspect the the rifles shipped to the American Fur company were not even partly percussion locks until the Mid-1830s at least. In 1830 they wrote Henry specifically telling them that percussion locked rifle “would not do”.
As late as the early 1840s people were being advised that percussion guns were unreliable.
W. Greener in  “The Gun” 1835 speaks to wide variations in cap quality.
The Tryon lock plate shape on this gun is very similar to one marked “Tryon  Philadel..” on and 1830s J&S Hawken percussion rifle in the Historical Society’s Museum in Helena. The plate looks very “flintly” but was always percussion. The “Tryon” marking was changed in 1835 to “Tryon and Son”  IIRC.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2022, 09:39:25 PM »
Its stocked very much like an English fowler other than the full octagonal barrel. Running a bore scope down the bore might show the remains of rifling or not. It could have been made either way. The rear sight is not a identifier for being a rifle. Lots of Trade Guns in the West have a rear sight of one sort or another. The scroll TG was in use in England before Jake moved to St Louis. But J&S were using them by about 1830 at least. Probably from seeing them on guns coming out of Birmingham. Or parts coming in from the same place.
This is a very intriguing piece of history and looks pretty “Western” to me. 

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Offline JHeath

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2022, 07:40:10 AM »
That is very cool. Interesting that many folks think the Hawken boys invented plains rifles with English influence, when this and otgrr were a are better examples. What a great gun for going west.

This gun itself shows great deal of English influence. The trigger guard, tang, round lock escutcheon, buttplate, trigger bar, engraving, geometry, all look like they were copied from English rifles and guns made 20 years earlier. I could easily match them point for point with photos of English sporting rifles made 1800 - 1820. If the Hawkens copied this, then they were copying a copy.

If it didn't say "Tryon" I would have pegged it as a Birmingham knock-off of a London rifle.

HEY. I just checked the history of Tryon. He sold imported goods from Birmingham!

My guess is that this is an imported Birmingham gun.

Offline JHeath

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2022, 07:50:47 AM »
Its stocked very much like an English fowler other than the full octagonal barrel. Running a bore scope down the bore might show the remains of rifling or not. It could have been made either way. The rear sight is not a identifier for being a rifle. Lots of Trade Guns in the West have a rear sight of one sort or another. The scroll TG was in use in England before Jake moved to St Louis. But J&S were using them by about 1830 at least. Probably from seeing them on guns coming out of Birmingham. Or parts coming in from the same place.
This is a very intriguing piece of history and looks pretty “Western” to me.

Tryon imported Birmingham guns. I'd put money on this being a Birmingham gun with a Tryon stamp. Possibly Liverpool. Everything on it screams English but not London quality.


Offline rich pierce

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2022, 05:10:52 PM »
Its stocked very much like an English fowler other than the full octagonal barrel. Running a bore scope down the bore might show the remains of rifling or not. It could have been made either way. The rear sight is not a identifier for being a rifle. Lots of Trade Guns in the West have a rear sight of one sort or another. The scroll TG was in use in England before Jake moved to St Louis. But J&S were using them by about 1830 at least. Probably from seeing them on guns coming out of Birmingham. Or parts coming in from the same place.
This is a very intriguing piece of history and looks pretty “Western” to me.

Tryon imported Birmingham guns. I'd put money on this being a Birmingham gun with a Tryon stamp. Possibly Liverpool. Everything on it screams English but not London quality.

The octagonal barrel does suggest it was a rifle at some point. If so it would be a great going west gun.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 09:29:04 PM by Ky-Flinter »
Andover, Vermont

Offline KMac

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2022, 05:31:56 PM »
Very interesting that it could be from Birmingham. Didn't use a bore scope but used a small flashlight and looks to have been a smooth bore.
After reading your excellent comments, would a date be closer to 1830 or later?

I forgot to include a photo of the rear sight...


Offline JHeath

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2022, 06:10:52 PM »
Very interesting that it could be from Birmingham. Didn't use a bore scope but used a small flashlight and looks to have been a smooth bore.
After reading your excellent comments, would a date be closer to 1830 or later?

I forgot to include a photo of the rear sight...


I am not an expert. I've just been looking at a lot of late-flint English sporting rifles for a while learning about them. Scores of them. Every one I can find online, the auction sites are full of English flintlock guns and rifles if you look hard enough.

I have not seen an English rifle with all those features plus that long a barrel. Only English smoothbores. And generally those were round or half-round. It looks like Tryon was importing by 1832. I don't know if he imported earlier than that, it might be possible.

Birmingham made guns "for the trade." On another thread I posted a W. G. Chance flint rifle from Birmingham that had the London rifle features that became classic plains rifle features. W.G. Chance had a NYC office that forwarded trade goods to St. Louis and was a vendor to the American Fur Company.

I'm guessing that your gun was made for export, and what is true of dating London rifles might not hold for exported Birmingham rifles. But my guess is that 1830s sounds possible. Earlier than that there wasn't as much importing and later a caplock would seem more likely. Also, if this gun was made for export it's possible they made a long rifled barrel for the American market. Typical English rifle barrels in the early 19th Century were 31" , when American barrels were much longer. The short barrel appears on plains rifles with a lot of other English features. The WG Chance rifle had far more drop than typical English rifles, yet the stock was evidently original because the butt had been narrowed to fit a crescent plate. That stock and your barrel are anomolies in English guns, but align with American tastes. Meaning Birmingham might have been accommodating the American market a little.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 06:16:49 PM by JHeath »

Offline JHeath

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2022, 06:46:23 PM »
KMac,

Google "Tatham Board of Ordnance Rifle" and find the Cowans auction listing. The direct link won't copy.

It is an 1816 London-made Board of Ordnance rifle by Tatham. He made a batch of these, 50 or so. They are believed to have been ordered as gifts for Native American chiefs but never presented.

Compare the buttplate, trigger plate, trigger guard, tang shape, and round escutcheon with yours. These are all typical English from that period.








Offline KMac

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2022, 07:02:51 PM »
JHeath,

Checked out the Cowan's website - very interesting - so similar. Pretty early at possibly dated 1816.

"He is probably most famous for producing presentation rifles for the British Board of Ordnance in 1816 for distribution to Canadian Indian Chiefs."

"Tatham also made lesser grade Indian presentation rifles for the Board of Ordnance as well." - which may be my gun?

Thanks for the info!  I found this Tryon at a gun show in the Philly area about 10 years ago where most were modern guns. Couldn't pass it up as it looked early, a Tryon and that scroll guard made me think of the J Henry and Hawken guns.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2022, 07:21:15 PM »
If the tryon gun doesn't have British  proofs its an American made gun. It was probably made as a rifle and later bored smooth.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2022, 07:23:36 PM »
also, the grain is very course and leads me to believe  it is black walnut.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline JHeath

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2022, 07:56:58 PM »
If the tryon gun doesn't have British  proofs its an American made gun. It was probably made as a rifle and later bored smooth.

I think the barrel looks swamped.

Mike, were export guns required to be proofed? Thought I read somewhere that it was not required. Were all trade muskets proofed?

Offline JHeath

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2022, 09:34:27 PM »


All these photos are "M.M. Maslin". Four guns, three are rifles. One of them is on Guns Intl with this note:

"Here we present an antique Flintlock American Long Rifle with M. M. Maslin marked lock made in Baltimore, Maryland circa 1825. Michael M. Maslin was a lock maker located in Baltimore from 1822 to 1833, and in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania from 1833 to 1847. In the mid to early 1800’s, Baltimore was known for its gun makers and production of early model firearms, including both flintlock and percussion. There is very little information out there on Maslin, other than these dates and locations."

Maybe his father was also M.M.  Or maybe he moved to America and changed styles. Or maybe he had multiple personality disorder. Or maybe Baltimore locks were exported to English gunmakers.

My *guess* is that he imported guns from Birmingham in addition to making Maryland rifles. According to the note above, he moved to Phila. shortly after Tryon incoporated his business for importing guns, watches etc from Birmingham.




















Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Tryon Full Stock Scroll Guard
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2022, 11:28:21 PM »
If the tryon gun doesn't have British  proofs its an American made gun. It was probably made as a rifle and later bored smooth.

I think the barrel looks swamped.

Mike, were export guns required to be proofed? Thought I read somewhere that it was not required. Were all trade muskets proofed?
As far as I know all trade guns imported from England were proofed an will have proof stamps.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?