TOW english fowler

[brokenflint]

I'm not really knowledgeable at all about fowlers, was cruising TOW catalog and noted their english fowler.  Says with different parts will also build and american fowler.  Anyone built one of TOW's English fowler guns?  I'm looking at the one on pg 104 in catalog.  Is it period correct with the double wedding bands and 8 to 16 facets on the barrel?

Broke

[frogwalking]

I seriously studied that fowler, but finally bought the kit from Jim Chambers.  I like the single wedding band on the Chambers bbl, and the 46 inch length.  Also the Chambers lock is full size. I think the lock on the TOW kit is a little smaller and an L&R.  On the other hand, I am nearly finished with a rifle made mostly from TOW parts.  They have all been good quality, and great service.  The only thing I would change if I were doing it again is that I would not have them cut any dovetails.  I can do it better.  The stuff from Chambers is top notch; period.  Either one would probably be great.

[California Kid]

I'd be a little leary of that barrel as it might be made from tubing, not sure. I would go with a Chambers kit.

[Osprey]

If you look farther back in the catalog at the stocks they have the same proflie but with no lock inlet and an undersize round barrel channel.  I picked one of those up, with a Chambers lock and a 16 ga Colerain barrel.  Bit more work, but it offers more flexibility.  Now I just have to get time to work on it...

[oldiemkr]

Hey Ca. Kid,

Maybe I got out of bed on the wrong side this AM but posting "might be made of tubing" is pretty vague.

I'm not aware that TOW sells any tubing barrels are you sure of your statement?

I've never purchased anything from TOW and have no axe to grind one way or another. I have purchased from Chambers and I concur on the good quality.

Can you tell us if you know of the TOW barrel quality?

I'm not trying to begin an argument. I'm concerned about the vendors we have in this sport. Its not the best of times and over the 40 years doing this I've seen a lot of them go by the wayside.

IMHO we need more than one or two suppliers.

[Dphariss]

I'm not really knowledgeable at all about fowlers, was cruising TOW catalog and noted their english fowler.  Says with different parts will also build and american fowler.  Anyone built one of TOW's English fowler guns?  I'm looking at the one on pg 104 in catalog.  Is it period correct with the double wedding bands and 8 to 16 facets on the barrel?

Broke

Look at the interior of the barrel VERY carefully. The one I got looked like a high school shop class had reamed it.
I did not find this until I cast a lap in it and lapped it. So long as the scratches ran perpendicular to the bore it looked fine lapping changed this and it had a significant "problem" about 4 inches down on one side of the bore, kinda like one half a jug choke.
So I polished it back to invisible in about 3 seconds with an electric drill and 400 grit and sold it back to them.
Other than this I loved the thing. Lock was fast, with its second mainspring, and easy on flints. Stock design is good.

Dan

Dan

[Daryl]

Seems to me TOTW uses either Colrain or BGM barrels in their kits.  Neither are tubing.

[Mike Brooks]

This guy has a nice english fowler kit for sale.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/brookskits.html

[Dphariss]

I have no idea where the TOW barrels come from but making statements such a their being tubing without some documentation is irresponsible.
If they were made from tubing and they had sold very many one could expect a failure by now.

Dan

[brokenflint]

Thanks for the replies so far, but I may have not made my original post clear.  I'm not interested in recommendations on other kits.  I have no problem with either the LR lock (actually I kinda like the smaller size) or Colrain barrels, I would just like to know the pros and cons so to speak.  What I was curious about is the authenticity and quality of the inletting etc of the TOW fowler kit.  Says Mike Hayes built the kit for them, but I didn't see if it was based off of an original.  Which is why I asked the question about 8 to 16 facets on the barrel and the double wedding bands.

Osprey  how was the inletting on the stock? quality of wood? good wrist grain?
Dpharris  -  you think this was a one off machining problem on the barrel?  As we are dealing here with a mail order type situation there is really no way to inspect the barrel prior to ordering it 

anyone else who has one of these kits or component  parts please chime in here and give me an honest evaluation of the pieces and workmanship.   Thanks

Broke

[California Kid]

I said might be tubing, not sure. The barrel they list for the English Fowler kit isn't Colerain.
I buy from TOTW and never had any problems, just an observation and something to research and think about before spending any money.

[Osprey]

I got the stock with no inletting, so can't answer that.  Got a very plain, grade one stock too, so no curl to comment on.  Grain looked fine.

[TomK]

'an observation and something to research and think about before spending any money."

Call them and ask, they'll tell you, they aint shy!

[Dphariss]

Thanks for the replies so far, but I may have not made my original post clear.  I'm not interested in recommendations on other kits.  I have no problem with either the LR lock (actually I kinda like the smaller size) or Colrain barrels, I would just like to know the pros and cons so to speak.  What I was curious about is the authenticity and quality of the inletting etc of the TOW fowler kit.  Says Mike Hayes built the kit for them, but I didn't see if it was based off of an original.  Which is why I asked the question about 8 to 16 facets on the barrel and the double wedding bands.

Osprey  how was the inletting on the stock? quality of wood? good wrist grain?
Dpharris  -  you think this was a one off machining problem on the barrel?  As we are dealing here with a mail order type situation there is really no way to inspect the barrel prior to ordering it 

anyone else who has one of these kits or component  parts please chime in here and give me an honest evaluation of the pieces and workmanship.   Thanks

Broke

Wood grain in the wrist or anyplace else is ALWAYS  a coin toss unless you can pick it before hand.
It will likely be as good as the average original.
I liked the one I had, the original mainspring was weak in the lock but the rest, aside from the reaming was fine and I would use the stock and other components again if they are all as I got a few years ago. It was the fully inlet stock as I recall. I should have traced the stock before I sold it.

Dan

[Kentucky Jeff]

I've dealt with TOW before for smoothbore kits other than the English Fowler.  Here is what I can confidently say.  All pre-inlet stocks are a compromise and reflect the skill of the person who sets up the duplicating jig as much as anything.   But the bad part about pre-inlet kits is in many ways you have no way to position locks, triggerguards, sidepanels etc.  You will have a little leeway.  But not much. 

Second.  The folks at TOW are VERY helpful and fair dealing.  If you are unhappy with the product they send you box it up and send it back.  They will either gladly refund your money or try to send you a replacement product that meets your expectations.   You can't get much better than that!

Third, Look at the Chambers smoothbore kits.  They are top notch and again Jim will go out his way to make you happy if you are not pleased with what you receive.   Jims kits, hands down, are the best on the market.  Not the cheapest. 

But TOW is a great company to do business with. 

Both companies use quality barrels and components.

[alex e.]

This guy has a nice english fowler kit for sale.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/brookskits.html

 

[northmn]

When you talk about "period correctness" a you need to consider many things. Primarily the locks design and buttplate trigger guard design contribute more than he barrel design.  The guns were hand made by a variety of individuals and would vary in small ways.  An American fowler would likely have a variation in barrel designs such that your concern over the flats and wedding bands is irrelevant.  The English also exported "cheap" fowlers that were very plain.  It is the general theme of the gun for period correctness, more than nitpicking over barrel design.  Not all fowlers were 20 ga either.  Probably the most consistant guns were the trade guns like the NWTG as far as bore and other features.

DP

[brokenflint]

Northmn

So is the TOW kit period correct as it stands then?  If built per the TOW catalog picture would it pass muster so to speak?  Please be specific here as to design elements that are appropriate for the gun illustrated so I can get a handle on what I'm looking at.  I'm hunting information.  Not being a hard a## here just trying to sort the pieces.

As I have said previously I have no knowledge of fowler design, I'm going out today and getting Grinslade's fowler book as a primer, but what I am doing here is trying to be a sponge so to speak and pick ya alls brains on fowlers.  I was using the TOW kit as my basis because I personally like the smaller LR lock and the 42" / 20 ga barrel.

For those of you who have recommended kits (please don't take this wrong), again I'm not interested in a kit selection recommendation, I've seen and built Chamber's kits, handled a Mike Brooks completed kit gun etc.  I know what to expect from them, I don't know about TOW.   


Broke

[Dphariss]

Northmn

So is the TOW kit period correct as it stands then?  If built per the TOW catalog picture would it pass muster so to speak?  Please be specific here as to design elements that are appropriate for the gun illustrated so I can get a handle on what I'm looking at.  I'm hunting information.  Not being a hard a## here just trying to sort the pieces.

As I have said previously I have no knowledge of fowler design, I'm going out today and getting Grinslade's fowler book as a primer, but what I am doing here is trying to be a sponge so to speak and pick ya alls brains on fowlers.  I was using the TOW kit as my basis because I personally like the smaller LR lock and the 42" / 20 ga barrel.

For those of you who have recommended kits (please don't take this wrong), again I'm not interested in a kit selection recommendation, I've seen and built Chamber's kits, handled a Mike Brooks completed kit gun etc.  I know what to expect from them, I don't know about TOW.   


Broke

The one I built was fine. People who want to know if its correct need to do the research into what the English were building at or before the period they want to be HC in.
The TOW gun is probably correct from 1740s to the 1780s at least in England. As a result its appropriate from before the F&I to the end of the Flint era if someone is concerned about the style being correct. Simple changes in the hardware, side plates etc perhaps carving, would be the only way to really date a 1740 from a 1780. After the 1780s+- the barrels got shorter the locks changed dramatically etc in the high end guns especially. But that does not mean the guns of this style immediately fell from use especially in America.

See "English Guns and Rifles" by George and other books for reference.

Dan

[James Rogers]

Northmn

So is the TOW kit period correct as it stands then?  If built per the TOW catalog picture would it pass muster so to speak? 

What time period are you going after? As far as period correct you need to find a time frame for the gun you want to represent.  I have never seen an English "fowler" in maple or black walnut. That would be the most glaring thing for me on the TOW kit. Of the two I would choose the walnut and wash out the purple hue to make it look more like English walnut.  Hardware will determine the time frame and "period correctness" a great deal. The best choice of trigger guard in my opinion is probably the first pattern acorn. That appears to to show up over the greatest length of time They do not even show it as a suggested option under their fowling gun kit last time I looked and they dont call it as such. It can be found in the trigger guard section of the catalog and they make reference to it as being modeled after a  Ketland  out of Hamilton's book.

 I was under the impression that Colerain made the barrels to TOW specs. The breech is only 1" in the TOW kit.  I would not use those super huge barrel shaped pipes they show with the kit in the catalog. I have seen them up close and they are way to large for such a tiny breeched gun. They are also VERY heavy and probably the heaviest and bulkiest of all the readily available cast pipes.

Keep in mind that Grinslade's book only has 4 English fowling guns pictured, one trade gun in the front and 3 waterfowling pieces in the the beginning of the "British Styled Fowlers" section. 

[rich pierce]

The gun would be fine for re-enacting purposes and you'd be ahead of 90% of the folks out there for 1760-1780.  I think Kit Ravenshear had a stain recipe for making black walnut look more like European walnut.  Anybody have that?

Many people are now dating the acorn motif on guards a little later than they once did.  More 1770's and on.

[brokenflint]

Dan  I'll see if I can get the English Guns and Rifles through ILL, thanks

James   Take a look at the thread ( http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=7111.0) I started on belt axe, which started this all    22 July 1779 is the date / time frame.  Jim  is this the trigger guard you refer to  TOW Cat # TG-Fowl-D-B on page 306 of Cat #17?

Broke

[James Rogers]

The gun would be fine for re-enacting purposes and you'd be ahead of 90% of the folks out there for 1760-1780.  I think Kit Ravenshear had a stain recipe for making black walnut look more like European walnut.  Anybody have that?

Many people are now dating the acorn motif on guards a little later than they once did.  More 1770's and on.

I think it was DaveC who used yellow stain on black to make it look like English. I have tried using a powdered yellow water based stain from Woodcraft on black walnut and it works very well to kill the purple.

I am one of those that think the later acorn guards date about like Rich has stated.
This is the first pattern acorn. It can safely go back into the 1740's and is found on guns much later as well.

[James Rogers]

Dan  I'll see if I can get the English Guns and Rifles through ILL, thanks

James   Take a look at the thread ( http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=7111.0) I started on belt axe, which started this all    22 July 1779 is the date / time frame.  Jim  is this the trigger guard you refer to  TOW Cat # TG-Fowl-D-B on page 306 of Cat #17?

Broke

Yes same TG. See post above. Go with brass for a more common gun.

[brokenflint]

Thanks James