Flint Vs Percussion Accuracy Test

[Frizzen]

I'm just looking for your test results here. I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who has ever
tried the two systems in a accuracy test. I had a rifle years ago that I could change the breech
plug and lock and do a comparison. Well after shooting up a 1lb. of powder the flint was a lot
more accurate. This was 50 yds. bench. The flint shot tighter groups. Yes, I went up and down
with the powder charges on each one to find the best. The rifle I shoot now I took out the vent
and screwed in a drum & nipple and changed the lock. After another 1lb. of powder the flint
system was the best. The gun just will not shoot as a cap. I have a flint pistol that can be changed
and it won't shoot as good as the flint. I seen a test years ago in "Muzzle Blast" where they had
a Ranson rest and tested a flint and cap at 50 yds pistol and the flint was better. My question is
why?   Have any of you ever found a percussion gun that would shoot better that flint? What
have you test shown you?

[Dphariss]

I'm just looking for your test results here. I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who has ever
tried the two systems in a accuracy test. I had a rifle years ago that I could change the breech
plug and lock and do a comparison. Well after shooting up a 1lb. of powder the flint was a lot
more accurate. This was 50 yds. bench. The flint shot tighter groups. Yes, I went up and down
with the powder charges on each one to find the best. The rifle I shoot now I took out the vent
and screwed in a drum & nipple and changed the lock. After another 1lb. of powder the flint
system was the best. The gun just will not shoot as a cap. I have a flint pistol that can be changed
and it won't shoot as good as the flint. I seen a test years ago in "Muzzle Blast" where they had
a Ranson rest and tested a flint and cap at 50 yds pistol and the flint was better. My question is
why?   Have any of you ever found a percussion gun that would shoot better that flint? What
have you test shown you?

I believe the flint ignition is more uniform so long as the vent is not too large. It adds nothing to the cycle but heat to start the main charge.
But this said some percussion rifles are very accurate.
But breech design may have something to do with this as well. There have been some very accurate percussion rifles both historically and current production.
But anything in the flash channel can cause fliers. A friend with a sealed percussion cap ignition has to watch this closely.
Also with BP the lower powered caps out shoot the "magnums" for most shooters, or so I am told.

Dan

[northmn]

Fascinating.  At best one can conjecture.  I would think the opposite of Dan, that flint ignition would not be as uniform.   It may be possible the drum and nipple is not as good??  I know my percussion with a drum and nipple absolutely will not shoot 777 or Pyrodex.  It hangfires and does all kinds of funny stuff, but shoots BP fine.  I have heard this about other drum and nipple systems, that they do not shoot phoney powders.  Less travel for the ignition with the priming close to the main charge in a flint?  That is supposed to be the advantage of underhammers?  Percussion guns have shot some very outstanding groups.

DP

[George Sutton]

I would ask this question;
How many flint guns have won the Alvin York Shoot?

I don't think very many.

Most bench guns that I've seen are caplocks. I know there are flinters out there, but I think the majority gravitate to the percussion guns. There has to be a reason.

It would be interesting to see some test results.

Centershot

[northmn]

<sup>I would ask this question;
How many flint guns have won the Alvin York Shoot?
I don't think very many.
Most bench guns that I've seen are caplocks. I know there are flinters out there, but I think the majority gravitate to the percussion guns. There has to be a reason.
It would be interesting to see some test results.

Centershot</sup>

We are getting back to the "precision/accuracy" discussion to some extent.  A percussion gun is generally easier to shoot, more reliable, as Pletcher's experiments indicate, quicker ignition and flintlocks are more prone to hangfires.  These factors lead to making them easier to shoot or more accurate for most shooters.  Is a flintlock more precise, or has the ability to produce tighter groups?
Bench shooters are probably building bench guns around percussion ignitions and working to get them to shoot, more than they are choosing the most "accurate" ignition.  Percussions did not replace flintlocks because of accuracy but because they are less temperamental.

DP

[Daryl]

My own testing has shown the reverse to Frizzen's speculation - my cap locks are more accurate than the flint guns - shot off the bench at 50 and 100 yards.  I did find the hot-shot nipples to be less accurate than solid ones, though.  In favour with the cap locks, was the generally larger bore, but in .45 and .50 as well.

 I've always found cap locks easier to shoot accurately, to hold 1/2" (or tighter) to 3/4" 5 shot groups at 50 yards without fliers. With the flinters, .40 and .45, I get fliers 1/2" to 1" out of the group, sometimes one or 2 out of 5 - but sometimes none.  This could be due to my propensity toward flinching - maybe not.

As to DP's note about phony powders, all my rifles have shot best with real BP.  I chock this up to more uniform ballistics. The fakes I've tested, Pyrodex and & to a lesser extent, T-7 double to triple shot to shot velocity variations.  Use of hotshot nipples in a .58 as well as the 14 bore, with BP, open speed variations to that of Pyrodex.  My .58 Enfield doesn't care whether I'm shooting T-7 (bought 2 pounds several years ago- almost gone now) or real BP, but the 14 bore refuses to shoot the T-7 accurately.  In the ctg. guns, the Pyrodex and T-7 are less accurate perhaps due to the larger shot to shot speed variations only, maybe not.

I can't help but feel real BP, with it's close shot to shot speeds MUST be more accurate, and along with this, a closed ignition as used on most false muzzled bench guns MUST be more accurate than one that allows gas escape at the breech to vary- which both flint and caplocks must do.

BTW- real BP, in good rifles, those with patent breeches, (with good heavy mainspring) locks that don't allow much or any leakage at the breech, shoot much more consistently shot to shot for velocity, than do locks that allow the hammer to rise on discharge.  This alone should contribute to their increased accuracy level.  That is, locks that when fired, leave the cap as one piece on the nipple, seem to show better accuracy than those that disintegrate the cap.  The larger bores are easier to obtain this 'feature'', due to lower operating pressure.

[SCLoyalist]

Without a gun with interchangeable locks like Frizzen has, it would be impossible to limit the tests to only one variable - flint vs. percussion ignition.

A chronograph would be helpful to determine differences in Muzzle velocity and MV Standard deviation.   If the particular percussion lock has a problem like a worn nipple or partially clogged nipple or flash channel, or if it prefers magnum caps to standard caps (or vice versa), those might show up as high Std numbers on the chrony.   If you can find loads for percussion and for flint ignition that produce the same MV and Std, the groups produced ought to be same off a bench.  And, try different caps, nipples, etc to see if your percussion results change.

Another experiment would be to get somebody else to shoot a few 5 shot strings to see what part of the group sizes you're seeing is attributable to 'software' (i.e. the shooter) vs.  'hardware' (the gun and load components).

BTW, I notice there is a gun for sale on ALR with  interchangeable locks.  It would be just the ticket  for somebody wanting to do research on this subject.
 
SCL

[hanshi]

My experience with Pyrodex in .45 Colt cartridges also showed extreme velocity variation.

I can often knuckle down and get nice groups at 50 to 75 yards but can't shoot well enough to compare cap vs flint.  I am normally able to call my fliers with my flints so I can't blame it on the gun.  Oddly, I shoot better with my muzzle heavy EV .50 (and my US M1841 of astounding capabilities) than with my lighter hunting rifles.  With the EV, for instance, I can come up with 2" to 21/2" 5 shot offhand groups at 50 yards on good days but that's my limit.  For some reason a bench rest usually doesn't do as well.

[northmn]

I would love to make a comparison but rarely shoot percussion anymore.  I consider my 45-70 a percussion gun as well as my 16 ga SXS double hammer CTG gun.  I did not remember any significant difference between my 50 percussion and my other flint locks however.  The biggest differences were between a clean barrel and one that was once fouled.  As Daryl pointed out the flint lock may have a tendency to throw once in a while.  I brought LP's tests up for a handy reference between lock times.  The variation for a flintlock is about .022 and for a percussion much less .005 (I tend to throw out the fastest and slowest).  Again, while flint locks may be more precise, it is far easier to hit with a percussion.  They are more accurate.

DP

[Larry Pletcher]

I can see where this could be heading.  Someone mentioned a test with a gun with interchangeable locks.  Steve Chapman and I both have such rifles and such a test in mind.   Steve's rifle is the better one for this type of work.  It is a target grade rifle with competition sights.  We've used if before and have some data history with it.  Steve already has an accuracy load worked up for competition at Friendship.  It would be the ideal rifle to use.   We ran a test on seating pressures with it and have more experiments in mind.  We are running out of good weather tho.

I hope steve steps in here with more details.
Regards,
Pletch

[Dphariss]

The theoretical reason a flint gun my shoot better is uniform ignition.
This has nothing to do with reliability or speed.
The flintlock simply sets the powder at the vent on fire.
It is impossible or at least nearly so, for the priming powder to add to or take away anything. So if the main charge is the same, the condition of the bore is the same, the shot to shot consistency should be very good.
But if the vent is too large it may blow out powder when its loades and this could cause variations. Large vents also reduce accuracy and increase velocity variations.  A machine rest would be the ultimate and might be the only way to really get this sorted out. Nor can it be determined with just a few groups. It would take quite a bit of shooting.

The percussion cap is more violent and variations are more likely to occur.
Or so I would think.

Dan

[rsells]

I have built about equal amounts of caplocks and flints in the 30 plus years I have been building rifles.  In many instances, I have worked up a load for the customer before giving him the rifle.  Normally, it takes me a bit over 6 hours at the bench shooting groups at 50 and 100 yards to get this done.  As I look back, I have had great shooting results with flints and caplocks using the normal drum and nipple configuration.  However, the two most accurate rifles I have ever produced were Hawken rifles using a breech plug with one 45 degree turn in the flame channel from the cap to the back of the powder charge.  One rifle had a .54 Douglas barrel and the other was a .50 H&H barrel.  Both of the rifles would shoot small groups off a rest at 50 yards, but the .50 would shoot slightly better (elongated hole with the spread variation vertical).     In both instances, I was stupid enough to let the customers have the rifles.  I have always had better results using black powder rather than some of the new propellants out there, but haven't took the time to evaluate what is out there today.  I am no expert, but it is easier for me to shoot the caplock than the flint freehand.  I have never really given up the cap and dedicated myself to the flint for long enough time to overcome the learning curve.  They are masters out there who can bring smoke on folks using a flint freehand.   I admire their expertiese a bunch.  
                                                                                Roger Sells  

[Daryl]

I know what Roger is saying- there are some guys out there who can shot flint rifles better than most others can shoot any rifle off the bench - indeed, they usually do the same - better offhand than they can shoot off the bench themselves. Taylor is just such a flintlock competitor.
   
Since I cannot hold a rifle - any rifle, steady, the faster and most importantly, the even consistency of the ignition, the better I can time my shot and therefore hit centre.  Timing is involved in squeezing the trigger to insitgate ignition when the sights are coming into the centre. The is important, as if I hold centre, by the time the gun goes off, with the relatively slow ignition of a muzzleloader or even modern rifle, by the time the bullet or ball is gone, the barrel will have moved off the target.  With the milliseconds of time involved between flintlock being slower than a percussion, the gun's sights, always moving, move off the target's centre even more to spoil an offhand target - high low or to one side of the actual aiming point.  The faster the 'consistant' ignition, the closer that shot is to the exact aiming point, and once one practises enough with a particular rifle offhand, one can time the shot to hit the same place, every time.  Timing, is the most critical aspect of offhand shooting - whether it's a muzzleloader or a Swiss butted International offhand rim or centre fire. The most consistant, fastest ignition time wins and that usually includes the fastest barrel time as well.  The longer the barrel, the greater to potential for the barrel moving off the mark between ignition and the bullet's departure from the muzzle - this is why most all benchrest barrels are 18" to 22" in length - and they're shooting 3,000fps or more with the fastest, stiffest, modern bolt action rifles made.

For us, with iron sights, it is a trade off between sight radius and barrel time/lock and ignition timing.

We have many strikes between us and perfection, so we must practise with what be brought to shoot - and practise, practise, practise.

[northmn]

Generally the flintlock shooters are those that have moved to that type of shooting for the challenge.  They ususally were better shooters to begin with.  There was a kind of culture if you will, when I shot competition, that one was almost expected to shoot flinters.  Many shooters felt it gave them more of a chance.  There was one flintlock shooter that was not permitted to shoot in percussion matches with his flintlock at that time.  They complained that he won too much.  He also wnet through about 25 lbs of powder a year.  Condidering the groups one can see shot with a percussion it would be a pretty fine difference between the two.  I understand what Dan is saying but if one looks at BP cartridges, some like pistol primers for a mild setoff and others use mag primers and drill out the primer hole.  Both hit targets.  Flintlocks for me are more fun, but I can shoot percussion a little better.

DP

[Mike R]

For me the percussion rifles I have are more accurate than the flinters--my own take on it is that the faster ignition time makes shooting the caplocks more like the cartridge rifles I grew up with--as far as holding on target.  Flinters take more concentration on follow-through and I am sure that, offhand, any flint shooter who is skilled enough could keep up or better a caplock shooter--but for me I can shoot offhand much better with a caplock.  Off the bench my caplocks are more accurate, but I cannot say for sure it is the lock or the overall rifle [barrel, triggers, load]. I am comparing apples and oranges--nearly every one of my numerous rifles has a different brand barrel!  Of course caplock vs flintlock is also apples to oranges...

[Dphariss]

I think to some extent we have confused easier to shoot accurately with the accuracy of the system.
Its always easier to shoot good groups with a faster lock time. I won quite a few 50 ft SB matches this way.

But this does not answer the question of which is more accurate.

Dan

[Daryl]

You're right, Dan, of course.  Off the bench as I think I noted earlier, I've gotten better groups with al of my caplocks over the years than with the flinters I shoot now.

 I do like shooting the flinters as they are considerably more challenging, but if I want to win a particular match, I shoot the 14 bore and smile a lot.  (it helps aleviate the pain- )

[northmn]

I think to some extent we have confused easier to shoot accurately with the accuracy of the system.
Its always easier to shoot good groups with a faster lock time. I won quite a few 50 ft SB matches this way.
But this does not answer the question of which is more accurate.

Dan

[/sub]
Precision/accuracy.  Precision is the load, barrel and possibly ignition system.  Accuracy is the trigger pull, sights, lock time, weight of the gun etc.  In other words the ability to hit what you shoot at.  Accuracy does not necessarily follow precision as a horrible trigger pull has nothing to do with precision.  You have the same precision with no sights at all.  The problem in testing lies in the fact that you probably need the accuracy variables to determine whether one system is more precise than another.  What are the results from Friendship on matches where percussion and flintlock are close to an even footing?  That would be one method of comparison.

DP

[northmn]

My screen keeps doing funny things making it hard to type.  I have had a certain amount of experience in stting up research and assisting Phd's in their research as a grad assistant. Anaylsis included computer generated multi-variate anaylsis such as regression.  Personally I feel that trying to set up an experiment to compare may be a little overwhelming.  You have three types of percussion ignition to compare.  Right angle drum and nipple, Patent breeches with their angles, and direct ignition as with in line or underhammer.  At this time Flinter has compared drum and nipple to flint in 2 cases.  You would also need more than one barrel to make the comparisons.  How fine of barrels?  In the end, with the exception of a heavy bench rifle possibly, you will find that the issues of accuracy, peep sights, trigger pull and more consistancy and faster lock time of percussion may be the most important factors of comparison.  Who shoots better scores at Friendship and are the match comparisons valid?

DP   

[Daryl]

Actually, sights, targets, range andlighting would have to be the same.  You can cut groups in 1/2, just by slightly changing bull size or shape or aiming differently on the target, all else being equal.

DP- up beside the address bar, there should be a box with a torn page picture. Click on that and you'll be allowed more depth in the post, without it jumping.(between address bar and the 'Refresh' box)

[Frizzen]

I have looked at the scores at Friendship. And year after year the Flint scores are higher.

[northmn]

I have looked at the scores at Friendship. And year after year the Flint scores are higher.

Better shooters?  Flintlocks more accurate? Or both?  Adds support to your theory that flintlocks are more precise.  Trying to prove it would be very costly.  When I used to shoot competition there was really very little difference in bullseye scores between the two, with the differences easily explained by the occaisional hangfire, etc.

DP

[Frizzen]

I knew a guy down in Okh. that they would not let him shoot his Flint in any percussion matches
becaused he would always win. So he built a rifle that had both locks on it. a right handed
flintlock mounted backwards on the left side, and a caplock on the right hand side. He could shoot
either way, whatever their rules would say. Real neat rifle, wish I had pictures.

[northmn]

Knew an individual like that also.  He built matching rifles because one organization would not let him shoot flintlock in percussion matches.  Says something about some competitors.


DP