Moly-Fusion in ML Barrels?

[Dancy]

Has anyone tried Moly or Moly-Fusion treatment in their muzzleloader barrel? I don't know much about it except have read about moly treated centerfire bullets and that some rimfire shooters use it in their barrels. Suppose to reduce friction and fouling, wonder if it would work well in longrifles?

[Daryl]

You could try it, J.Dancy, BUT - most who shoot moly in their rimfire and centrefire rifles, use moly coated bullets. One such is "Danzac" coating, whereas many buy of coat their own bullets.  Moly coating kits are available - the powder as well as the carnuba wax some use after the moly coating process using tumblers.  Of course, this doesn't apply to our method of shooting.  Now, how would moly or moly grease  react to BP fouling, I don't know - but doubt it will work as well as most other patch lubes.   You need only to coat a few patches and try them. Also- until you get moly grease into the cracks and fissures in your hands and cannot get it out, you won't appreciate it's 'niceties'.  It is horrid, messy stuff to deal with.  I use it for lubing the innards of my locks as it doesn't wash out when i clean them.  This non-water soluble nature means to me it won't work with BP, as least it will not soften BP fouling and therefore must be wiped each shot or 2. THAT means the bore changes condition each shot, rendering no consistency. BP accuracy is a consistency problem - must be identical, shot to shot.

Moly grease is sold for coating the bore before shooting moly coated bullets.  How it would work in a ML is speculation - you'd have to wipe and reapply each shot - probably.  Some target shooters use Teflon coated patches but have too wipe between shots as the fouling is dry and hard. If it wasn't so messy, I'd like to try an accuracy test using moly grease and cleaning each shot- but no - I hate to wipe the bore except when I clean the gun (hate that too, but it's necessary) & I'm surely not going to use a patching system that demands it.  Doesn't matter if I'm shooting the 32 with 35gr. 3FGOEX or .69 with 165gr. 2FGOEX, neither fouls the bore in the slightest for an entire day's shooting - most I've done in a day is around 100-125 shots - no wiping, of course.

[Dancy]

Guess I was thinking in terms of treating a clean barrel, my understanding is that once applied it bonds with the metal and stays until the metal surface gets worn away. I'm with you, it would be a hassle to coat each ball and/or patch. Wondering if it would act like Teflon coating in a pan and allow the fouling to slide off easily and help protect the bore? Could it make it too slick?? With the Teflon patches being used commonly now days, I figured some may have tried the Moly-fusion.

James

[Daryl]

There are moly sprays that are fairly cheap, but more expansive in the long run that using a brass tumbler for coating jacketed bullets.  Lead bullets have to be stood on their noses and sprayed.  Hoppe's sells a moly spray, as well as MS Moly. Both dry and harden to a non-stick coating, but will wear off with handling or from rubbing inside a pocket.  When moly coated bulelts are fired, or if one of the drying-type molies is rubbed into the bore before firing, the moly is ironed into the barrel's surface and irregularities but - it does wear out if non-molied bullets are fired- in 10 to 15 shots it is usually mostly gone, it might leave some patches, but the non-molied bullet accuracy will be returned by then, showing the bore is now about cleaned from moly.  You normally cannot shoot a moly coated bullet then non molied bullet and expect good accuracy as it will change, shot to shot. Moly reduces velocity, due to reducing pressure in CF barrels.  It usually takes from 5 to 15 bullets to re-condition a barrel after using moly or switching from bare to moly coated bullets.  Putting moly inside the barrel before shooting might save a couple shots, is all. It won't have a lasting effect.

I have shot molied cat bullets in my .50/70 Sharps, without lube, in smokeless loads. Excellent accuracy and no leading.
I shoot moly coated bullets in my .224 and .17 cal. C.F. gopher guns, so have some experience with it.

 I also use the Hoppe's or MS Moly sprays to coat my ball and bullet moulds. The balls and bullets cast more easily and lead does not stick to the blocks.  It is as good or better than Rapine's mould prep, which is a liquid graphite mix.

[Dancy]

I researched some more and as I understand it now, Moly or Molybdenum-disulfide is different than the Moly-Fusion product from Shooter Solutions, a Molybdenum-Phospate solution (that was/is a little confusing for me). The Moly-Fusion product is suppose to bond with the metal surface, not just a coating like traditional Moly and apparently provides some level of rust resistance too. Sounds like it might be good in a blackpowder application if it performs as advertised.

Daryl, is your experience with the Moly-Fusion product or the Molybdenum-disulfide? Thanks for the info. you have provided so far.

It would be interesting to hear of someones real world use of the Shooter Solution product and see if its any good. I may try it, but just don't get out of the city as often as I would like.

Here are a couple of web sites about it, if anyone is interested.

http://www.shootersolutions.com/molyfusion1.html

http://ruger22.com/pages/review6.htm

James

[Daryl]

Moly Disulfide only. The fellows on my small bore forum have gone away from the fusion deal as far as I know as it doesn't live up to it's advertising seems to me.

  As to preventing rust, all of the molies, as far as I know will allow moisture between them and the bore. This is bad news as with normal 4140 and 4150 chromemoly barrels, which are much harder than most ML barrels, rust still happens if they are not cleaned regularly.  Perhaps daily cleaning is enough, though, as all ML's should be cleaned after being shot.

[FL-Flintlock]

I was really hoping some of the chemists here would render an opinion of this product.  I became curious about it after seeing references and feedback on some centerfire forums.  I did some research and found it interesting how this product does not provide any documentation in the way of standardized industrial lubricant tests such as; ASTM D series; Needle on Disc; Ball on Disc; Plate on Plate nor even the most applicable to guns ... Linear Motion Sliding Wear Thrust (LMSWT).  Nor can I find reference to any standardized surface finish/conditioning tests.  MSDS is not available at any of the primary MSDS pools nor can I find it posted on their website, not saying it's "not there" I just haven't found it yet despite making a valiant attempt.  I did find a lot of conflicting information along with at least one very impressive but unsubstantiated claim of:

MOLY FUSION: "The surface becomes bullet proof".

MOLY FUSION: Molybdenum "ions" bond into the surface.

According to the information presented by a company that specialize in lubrication/corrosion coating applications: Molybdenum ion bonding can not occur with alloy surface temperature below 735°C (1355°F).  To eliminate the need for heating the entire substrate material or the use of acid reaction that is known to cause hydrogen enbrittlement, we have developed a vacuum chamber multi-arc magnetron sputter deposition machine.  The principle of the vacuum chamber electric multi-arc is the integration of the cold cathode arc discharge self-sustained light unit pulse technique with magnetron sputtering technology that allows for thinning the particles in order to improve the properties of the surface deposition."

MOLY FUSION: Nitrating "ions" add hardness which reduces the coefficient of friction.

From a company specializing in Molybdenum and zinc surface lubricants used primarily for drawing and forming dies:  "Nitrates/nitrating compounds allow for on-surface bonding of the coating via heat-activated acid reaction, it does not change the hardness or other mechanical properties of the substrate other than to provide a manner of semi-permanent lubrication to be used in conjunction with standard liquid/gel lubricants.  Compounds are Ph neutral utilizing a phosphoric acid encapsulation technology that prevents acid release until heated to approximately 125°F."


There is a definite contradiction between the following two statements.

MOLY FUSION: Some things Molyfusion can do:
The surface becomes resistant to sandpaper and hardened metal filing, due to its nonstick nature - not hardness.

MOLY FUSION: Page 5 of the directions:
If accidentally permanent treatment occurs, aggressively swipe with 600-1000 grit sandpaper and reinsert shavings and all (will make sure it grabs in the jaws). - Page "Instructions".

One of the "black powder testimonials" posted on their site got my attention:

"We did a bit of testing with Moly [Fusion] this weekend. We were testing with muzzleloaders and found some neat results.  With round balls normally there is a limit to how hard you can push a ball out the barrel before the patch begins to shred and accuracy goes to pot.  We found we could increase the powder charge from 60 to 90 gr. of FFFg before the patch began to shred!  We did a sort of blind accuracy test.  We had two White Mountain 1 in 66" twist ball barrels one treated one not.  We shot groups at 100 yards off simple bench rest.  The guys shooting didn't know which barrel was treated and which wasn't.  We found accuracy improved from an average 7" group to 5" in the treated barrel.

 

No offense intended but if the patch is "shredding", something is seriously wrong with the patch/ball combo and/or the barrel.  No lube of any kind is going to make up for mechanical problems.

MOLY FUSION: 4C™ Metal Prep It also is a further time saver by allowing welding through hot mill scale (if desired) and without removal.  In addition, it may eliminate the need to use shielding gases in welding, since there is now no longer any oxide to weld through.

First off, hot mill scale can be welded through with common SMAW & FCAW processes although it's not advisable so as to help eliminate the possibility of inclusion ... however, with the right settings, right method and quality consumables, it is not that difficult to float the mill scale off with the flux and make a reasonably satisfactory weld.  By no means does that mean I am sanctioning the lack of pre-weld cleaning, I'm just say that it is possible to do if absolutely necessary but I strongly advise against it. 

As for eliminating the shielding gas, the gas is used to stabilize the arc and isolate the weld puddle from the ambient atmosphere not oxides on the metal.  That also ties into the issue of weld "spatter" (not "splatter") which is not only caused by crud on the weldment but also within the weldment.  Spatter is also the result of low quality consumables; incorrect voltage, amperage settings and/or stability; incorrect polarity; incorrect arc angle or length; arc issues caused by the shielding gas composition or lack thereof; incorrect filler wire feed rate; compatibility issues between base and/or filler metals .... Spatter is not comprised solely of redeposited oxides from the base metal, it can also be droplets of the base and/or filler metal as well as impurities or moisture in the flux.

Not to be a putz about this but after reading the entire website and noting the lack of scientific testing data, I find it difficult to believe any of the claims being made especially after noting the conflicting and misleading statements.  I really would like the chemists to weigh in on this topic and I'll post another request in the "Over the Back Fence" forum.

[Daryl]

I am leary of Trogens bearing gifts.

You are right, FL Flinter - with a proper ball/patch combination, there is no limit to pressure or speed for the patch within reason.  The stiffer the load, of course, the tighter the combination must be to maintain the integrity of the patch.

[FL-Flintlock]

I am leary of Trogens bearing gifts.

You are right, FL Flinter - with a proper ball/patch combination, there is no limit to pressure or speed for the patch within reason.  The stiffer the load, of course, the tighter the combination must be to maintain the integrity of the patch.

I dunno about that Daryl ... Perhaps we need to be "modernized" considering the following statements I found on a forum dominated by the .209'ers.  I started saving them because you never have enough reference material...

Cloth patched loads need to be kept light like less than 50 grains because the material can't hold much pressure.

Don't try using a patch in a smoothbore.  There is no rifling grooves for the excess patch to go into and it will cause a bore obstruction!"

Balls that are too hard will tear up patches on firing because the ball slips out of the patch in the barrel.

Roundballs are very low velocity and have a significant arc that limits the maximum point blank range to very short distances of about 30 yards.  The spherical nature of the ball requires a very large bore diameter of 12 gauge or bigger to carry a ball heavy enough to provide a quick kill on big game."

Patches are only used to keep the bore from fouling with lead."

Zouave barrels are slow twist of 1:78 for shooting miniballs only, you need 1:48 twist to shoot roundballs.

Plastic sabots are needed cuz the patches don't hold up to the high velocities.

          

[Daryl]

I would not have saved any of that, myself - but - it was good for a laugh - thanks for posting it FL.

This all sounds like someone who is trying to eliminate RB's for hunting - saying that conicals are the only choice.

Incidently the point blank range on deer for my .69, with it's little 482gr. ball, is 115-120 yards. On moose or elk it's a good 125-130yards.  Maybe they forgot to add the 1 in front of the '30'.  or -  they were talking about the point blank range of a conical - closer to the truth.

I do admit, a 12 bore is a good big game calibre.

That list of quotes is amazing - how can anyone without an alterior agenda have made those statements?  What's the site (PM Please), maybe I need to have a look at it - when I'm down, that is, and need a pick-me-up laugh.

[FL-Flintlock]

I figure if I save 'em, one of these days I can make some extra cash doing stand-up at the rondy's. 

They come up all over the place and the more inclined the forum is to modern guns, the better they get.  I troll around the forums when I'm too tired to get my brain to function for other things.  I'll send you an email later.