Author Topic: Lock kit building  (Read 3835 times)

TookGun

  • Guest
Lock kit building
« on: April 17, 2022, 05:05:29 AM »
Has anyone tried this at home with hand tools and a drill press. I also have a lathe and a torch. I also have a Power fixture for stoning. How hard is it?

Offline martin9

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2022, 06:39:55 AM »
I've built 2 locks from kits. It's not all that hard although I would only do it again if it was a special kind of lock that I couldn't get by modifying an existing lock, Chris Hirsch and the rifle shoppe have a couple locks that I plan on building one of these days.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2022, 09:53:53 AM »
Has anyone tried this at home with hand tools and a drill press. I also have a lathe and a torch. I also have a Power fixture for stoning. How hard is it?

I have done with less when I was a kid. Not even a drill press.
A lathe comes in handy for truing the tumbler shafts. Making better screws etc. You may need to order reamers and slightly undersized drills for the holes in the lockplate and maybe the bridle. This will give better fits and less wobble. Especially if you reduce the diameters in truing the tumbler. Chucking reamers are made in .001 increments in most sizes. If you turn the shafts and true the body of the tumbler leave a slightly raised “bearing” so that the entire face of the tumbler does not ride on the lock plate and/or bridle.
This the the start having trued the side of the tumbler. Will next true the shaft and rduce the hieght of the “bearing” this lock comes with them but the casting was not 100% “flat” and truing it made the bearing surface higher.

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2022, 09:56:53 AM »
Get some good quality coated taps. And drills that are the specified size or a few of thousandths (like one number size) under to give max thread depth. Good tapping fluid.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

TookGun

  • Guest
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2022, 05:07:46 PM »
Thank you all. I am going to start with the small Siler. I guess it will come with some instructions, but is there any books that would help with heat treating or tempering . Barbie did say you could mess it up and get new parts to start over. This thing came to me after I took two locks to the Lock Doctor for tuning. He said they all can be tuned and smoothed up.  I am sure the custom details can be learned if I put my mind to it and get the proper training to begin with. Springs are my biggest fear. I guess I will figure it out. Thanks

Offline Osprey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
  • Roaming Delmarva...
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2022, 06:04:59 PM »
You could get the 3 disc set with Mike Miller forging a flintlock, does it all with fire, a hammer and files. 
"Any gun built is incomplete until it takes game!"

Offline Van

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2022, 06:07:10 PM »
   I built the small Siler kit.  It does come with instructions for assembly and heat treating.  It turned out great.  Mine was flint.  The only thing I found tricky was getting the holes drilled precisely for the frizzen mounted to the pan. Got to get it clamped just right to drill straight through both pieces for the pivot screw.  That is where my drill press and compound sliding vise came in handy.  All springs are already tempered and ready to install.  My kit came from Log Cabin Shop.  They have the replacement parts if you mess up anything.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 06:19:39 PM by Van »

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2022, 06:57:02 PM »
I have never tried to make a lock from a kit and the hand forging of all parts is interesting but how about the screws which involves threading?Some of the cast mechanisms like
the Hamm locks used were an abomination made from plastic/epoxy moulds that guaranteed a
low end product.The external parts were barely OK but could be cleaned up and used by myself and others.Springs are a separate skill set and not really in the normal machine shop daily work.I have heard no bad reports on the Chambers/Siler or Late Ketland locks and another thing I noticed,at least on this forum is that there seems to be a more affluent group that don't let $3 stop their projects like happened in the early 1970's.I sent a good bit of my work to Germany back then and they did not understand why I had to send my locks to them and not be able to sell them here in the USA.I told them the lock must be the cheapest thing on the gun and it cost less to stand and curse a lock that won't work than to buy one that would.
Bob Roller

Offline foxm2015

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2022, 07:11:26 PM »
Try Track of the Wolf for their offerings from the late Kit Ravenshear.

Offline kutter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 715
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2022, 07:25:05 PM »
I'm putting a lock together for a Queen Anne Musket now.
The 'kit' from TRS.

All through the building process of this musket the metal parts(castings) have been less than favorable to my liking. I've had to peen some edges to lengthen them so they match contours on opposite sides, straighten bends, and sometimes just plain add metal where it isn't there.
All do-able.
Wood the same. Generous inletting.
The entire thing is actually a restoration of sorts more than a 'build' in my mind.
Matching in pieces of wood where missing, metal where missing or doesn't fit,,etc
Good thing I did that as a living for so long.

Then there's the lock..
Now the lop-sided parts , bent, missing metal pieces take on a whole new problem.
By the time you square up a piece in the lathe or on the Mill, you start to really change dimensions.

It's coming along though.
One thing I'd suggest if using one of these castings kits is to wait to purchase specific drill and reamer sizes untill you are absolutely sure of the finalsizes of specific holes and thread sizes.
I went with simply drilling the plate hole for the tumbler axle and then scrapping the final fit instead of getting a reamer.
The small axle that fits the bridle on the far end,,I turned that clean on the casting of the tumbler first. Measured that dia and drilled the bridal a bit smaller that that turned size.
Then returned to the tumbler and lathe turned/shaved the tumbler axle down to barely slip fit the bridle.
Now the Tumbler has a tight fit on both turning points ,,plate and bridle, and I can lap them in easily.

I originally lathe turned the tumbler sides flat and left a bearing ring on each side as Dphariss shows below.
The bridle I squared up the outside flat area and soft soldered it to a piece of steel to hold on to it.
Then in the mill I flush cut the inside bearing surface and the 'feet' that stand against the lock plate when screwed in place.
Simple caliper measurement of the thickness of the bearing thickness off the tumbler just turned gives you the distance you need for the bridle betw the feet (lockplate) and that bearing surface (outside bearing ring on the tumbler).
Some hand fitting is usually needed when final assembly is done.

Of course the back side of the lock plate has to be flat as well.
This one wasn't of course. I straightened it as best I could with hammer and straight edge. Likely good enough for most mechanisms. But the casting had dips and waves in it. So I clamped that in the mill and after several attemps at leveling a wavy crooked piece, I selected the best position I could get and barely skim milled the back surface level and got what I needed.

The hammer was bent outward from just above the square hole for the tumbler shaft.
Heat red (the O/A torch to the rescue) and back in order.
The as-cast 4 sided flats were way off center from the spindle shaft of the tumbler. I turned that setion of the shaft off the same dia as the bearing section when I trimmed that up in the lathe.

Slow hand file work to fit a 4 sides, tapered flats to the hammer which had 4 already cast somewhat tapered flats in place. Took me 5 hrs just to fit the hammer to the tumbler shaft, inclu D&T for the screw.

Other things like fitting the separate pan and fitting the frizzen also needed extra help due to the out of shape, crooked castings. I made and used a small dia bushing through the frizzen that the frizzen screw shoulders against . This so the frizzin pivots on the slightly larger dia bushing than the #8 screw it slides over. Plus the shoulder of the bushing that the screw tights down on from the outside is just that and not the frizzen itself.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 07:29:10 PM by kutter »

Offline P.W.Berkuta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2022, 07:30:29 PM »
To assemble a Slier lock kit is not hard but assembling a kit to get a GOOD finished functioning lock is a bit more involved. As others have already said good taps and dies along with a numbered drill set (drill index) and some reamers will give you a better finished product. Homemade jigs will help a lot to keep everything in rigid position during drilling, reaming, and tapping which will keep things in "square". That said with some knowledge and some good metal working skills you will do fine with minimal tools. The Siler springs come already heat treated but the tumbler and sear do not. Good luck and get at it - you will learn a lot assembling one.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2022, 10:04:11 PM »
I've built 2 locks from kits. It's not all that hard although I would only do it again if it was a special kind of lock that I couldn't get by modifying an existing lock, Chris Hirsch and the rifle shoppe have a couple locks that I plan on building one of these days.

One of the Chris Hirsch locks with the reenforced cock and round end plate looks like it might have potential and it won't force a bankruptcy to buy it.
Bob Roller

Offline ajcraig

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 45
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2022, 10:54:51 PM »
If you've got the time, there is a six-day lock building program (6/5 - 6/10) at this year's NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar, always an excellent program. Here is the description of the class:

Lock Making and Tuning – Mike Miller. Mike will instruct how to customize and modify a flintlock using the “Chambers Gunmaker’s Lock” where you can make either a Germanic or English style lock. Mike also will teach lock tuning for even faster and consistent ignition. A bonus segment includes modifying set triggers, as well as, cold forging a single trigger. Material cost will be limited to the Gunmakers Lock and Set Triggers.

The class is not very large this year (I'm enrolled in the class) and there's probably room for a few more students.  Here is the NMLRA link to the Gunsmithing Seminar:  https://www.nmlra.org/nmlra-gunsmithing-seminar

Offline PIKELAKE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2022, 01:07:44 AM »
Back in the early 1970's, I bought a Siler lock kit from Mr. Bud Siler to save a few bucks. I did not have a good drill press at the time and everything went well until I had to drill the tumbler for the cock screw. I could not center the hole and fowled up three tumbler. The fourth time I called Mrs. Siler to order another she could sense my frustration and the tears in my eyes; she told me she would ask Bud to drill and tap that hole, which he did. That locks works just fine today and I still have the 3 ruined tumblers as keep-sakes.   JZ
JOHN ZUREKI

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Oklahoma
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2022, 05:40:03 AM »
Bob, if one was to decide to make a tumbler from scratch, would A-2 be a good choice for material? Just wondering since I have plenty of off fall A-2 round stock hanging around and it's fairly easy to heat treat.
Psalms 144

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2022, 01:51:49 PM »
Bob, if one was to decide to make a tumbler from scratch, would A-2 be a good choice for material? Just wondering since I have plenty of off fall A-2 round stock hanging around and it's fairly easy to heat treat.

If A-2 is a carbon steel it should work.The locks of days long gone were made from who knows what and some still work.
I used 1144 "Stressproof". It machines like 12L14 and hardens like drill rod.It is easily shaped to the peculiar shapes of a lock
tumbler and readily available.Give the A-2 a try and see what happens.
Bob Roller

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4473
    • Personal Website
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2022, 03:47:57 PM »
Bob, if one was to decide to make a tumbler from scratch, would A-2 be a good choice for material? Just wondering since I have plenty of off fall A-2 round stock hanging around and it's fairly easy to heat treat.

A2 would work fine as long as it is hardened and tempered to the proper hardness.

Jim

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Oklahoma
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2022, 10:28:21 PM »
Bob, if one was to decide to make a tumbler from scratch, would A-2 be a good choice for material? Just wondering since I have plenty of off fall A-2 round stock hanging around and it's fairly easy to heat treat.

A2 would work fine as long as it is hardened and tempered to the proper hardness.

Jim
What would the ideal hardness be for a tumbler?
Psalms 144

Offline martin9

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2022, 12:21:43 AM »
I don't know the scientific answer but tumblers are very hard. Basically file steel hard.

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2022, 01:53:50 AM »
I would think around 62c for A2, this should be file hard. Remember if cooked to long at temp the part can get too hard and brittle. And maybe crack at a bad time.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline P.W.Berkuta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2022, 09:24:19 PM »

What would the ideal hardness be for a tumbler?
[/quote]

If you don't have a Rockwell Hardness Tester to test the part, then the Rockwell Hardness number means NOTHING - it's is just a number. It's like saying "how hard is hard"? You will need to reference a color chart to get you in the ballpark for the steel you are using. This goes for the initial hardening temp and tempering temp also. You do not want the part to be so hard as to chip or fracture nor too soft as to deform the half or full cock notches when used. Make up test pieces and try cutting them with a good fine file this should give you an idea on how hard your part is.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19523
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2022, 10:08:15 PM »
A case-hardened mild steel tumbler could probably be as hard as Rockwell 64 without worries if not too deep. Even then I’d temper to straw color. Paul is right- all risk depends on the hardness at the notches and whether through-hardened or not. A 450 F tempering provides safety no matter your approach.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4473
    • Personal Website
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2022, 11:02:38 PM »
I would probably temper A2 around 550 F.  That should put you somewhere in the range of 57 HRC.  Too hard and notches are brittle and can be subject to damage.  Beware that case depths can be such that brittleness of notches can be a problem.  So, I would suggest tempering even after carburizing or case hardening.


Jim

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2022, 10:34:17 PM »
I drew the tumblers on my locks to a light straw color and the tip of the arm that held the link usually a blue,indigo.
The sear was drawn to a dark blue and I let it track to the tip of the sear to a straw color. I know this is barn yard metallurgy
but it works and works well once learned.
Bob Roller

TookGun

  • Guest
Re: Lock kit building
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2022, 11:08:20 PM »
The old blacksmith art is dieing with each generation.  Heating to non magnetic, quenching and tempering is known by very few. Hand filing parts to shape is another art that has to be practiced. We are so spoiled it is unbelievable. That is why I am going to try the kit. The next will be to hand build.  Oh I would love to be back in the shop with all the machines but this is therapy.