Fitting a Frizzen to Pan

[Nhgrants]

Could someone explain a process to fitting a frizzen to the pan.
I would like the lock to be able to hold 4f for priming.
I am thinking that this would done with a transfer material like soot or prussian
Blue. 
Which piece would you remove material from, the pan, the lock or both?
Would a fine file be used?
Thanks for any advice.

[smart dog]

Hi,
There is no way to really help you until you post a picture of the frizzen and pan.

dave

[Darkhorse]

On my Chambers large silers I remove material from the pan. I use inletting black lightly applied to the bottom of the frizzen and press the frizzen down to mark the high spots on the pan. Then using a variety of tools I file off the high spots on the pan. I continue until no light can be seen between the pan and frizzen.
This can be a rather long and tedious process.

I use swiss files, a new, sharp 6" file, a diamond knife sharpener. And sandpaper wrapped around a piece of wood.

That's the way I've always done it. But I would like to hear of a better way.

[Goo]

Hi,
There is no way to really help you until you post a picture of the frizzen and pan.

dave

Your response causes me to think there is/are other problems with pan fit to frizzen fit than just the mating surfaces being flat.

[deepcreekdale]

I use Prussian Blue, available at any autoparts store. I apply it to the frizzen itself, then close it. It will leave a clear mark where it contacts. I then use a fine, high quality needle file to remove the high spots until I have a tight seal. Should go quickly.  Traditionally, they probably used soot which is still how high end British shotguns are final fitted. I just find the Prussian Blue easier.

[rich pierce]

I’m not sure what stage you are at. Are you assembling a lock kit or set of castings, or fixing a gap on an assembled lock?

[Nhgrants]

This is a L and R Queen Anne Lock that I had bought new "in the rough".
I had cleaned and touched up the parts but never fitted the frizzen to pan.  I post some photos.
The fit now is not great as 4f will leak out. 

[Clowdis]

First clean up the bottom of the frizzen and then I would assemble just the frizzen and frizzen spring to the lock plate and use prussian blue or inletting black on the frizzen to check the fit to the pan. You can hold the lockplate in your vise. Remember, you can only do so much filing and fitting before things get out of hand and you get some bad angles. Like some of the others have said already, a photo of the gap would be helpful.

[rich pierce]

These can be devilish and sometimes getting and drilling a new frizzen properly. I’m thinking a period repair would be adding braze where needed and then filing to fit. Adding material will often be better than filing till the cows come home.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Hi,
There is no way to really help you until you post a picture of the frizzen and pan.

dave

Your response causes me to think there is/are other problems with pan fit to frizzen fit than just the mating surfaces being flat.

When you are assembling a lock kit like a Siler as an example, the top of the pan and the bottom of the frizzen must be dressed flat before they are assembled and the frizzen screw hole drilled.  Drilling the hole poorly can upset the fit terribly.  Clamping the frizzen to the pan for drilling the screw hole is an awkward job, and unless it's done perfectly, a misaligned hole will be the result.  Then much tedious filing/fitting must be done to get the frizzen to mate nicely with the pan.
Learning how to file flat is a skill that is necessary for this job, and for many others too,in the gunsmithing trade.  I have seen very few artisans who have the skill.
To address this, when working on the frizzen's bottom pan cover, and the top of the pan, I have found it useful to clamp a lathe file in my vise, and draw the metal part over the file in a long continuous pull or push.  Even then, it is easy to rock the part you want flat, and create a roundness that is disastrous.

[Bob Roller]

Hi,
There is no way to really help you until you post a picture of the frizzen and pan.

dave

Your response causes me to think there is/are other problems with pan fit to frizzen fit than just the mating surfaces being flat.

Take a close look at the frizzen pivot screw.It might be undersize and the pressure of the frizzen spring may be pushing it at an
angle.
Bob Roller

[sqrldog]

Try fitting a frizzen to a pan on YouTube.  There is a video showing one way to do it. If the pan is milled flat and the gap is not too great this is the way I do it. As Bob Roller stated having a good fit between the frizzen screw and frizzen screw hole is necessary before fitting the frizzen.

[Darkhorse]

Forgive me if in my earlier post I oversimplified the process. I was a toolmaker for 30 years or so and things like being able to file flat just comes natural. Maybe that's why things like fitting the frizzen to a pan seem simple.
Anyway here is a older post from this forum about the subject. In this post is a link to a you tube video explaining the process.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=46453.0

[Dphariss]

I also use scrapers that are made of O-1 tool steel and drawn back to “straw” these will scrape steel and are more precise than filing during the final fitting.

Magic marker can be used to show what needs to be removed.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Goo, yes there can be more issues.

Here is a thread that will help you with your Queen Anne lock.  Scroll through and you will see how to fix your frizzen and pan.  You need to get rid of the stupid lug on the bottom first.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60628.msg607217#msg607217

dave

[Eric Krewson]

I do it this way, I have tried to file the pan on an old well worn Roller lock and just went in circles, when I filed the frizzen I had a perfect fit in no time.



I have an old Gustomsky lock that has a terrible pan to frizzen fit and a miss-drilled frizzen arm that as near as I can tell couldn't be re-drilled to fit the pan properly, the arm is just cast completely wrong.

[flehto]

My early large and small Siler locks were from kits and the most critical assembly was the frizzen to the pan surface. Both have to be flat and before drilling the pivot hole, the 2 parts have to be clamped together tightly which requires a custom clamp which I no longer have. A tap drill is used first so the holes in the lock plate and frizzen must be drilled w/ a slip fit drill  which is made into a reamer by rounding the corners of the  drill point......  this drill {reamer} will follow the existing hole for the pivot screw ln the lock plate and frizzen while still clamped and the holes won't be enlarged.  Caution is warranted as regards the depth...just touch the inside of the  tap hole in the outer arm w/ the drill {reamer} which yields a shallow ctsk.

An accurate layout for the pivot screw must be made on the bolster and the tap drill starts there. All this work is done in a drill press. I was a tool and diemaker for many years  so take that into consideration when contemplating doing this  work.....Fred   

[smart dog]

Hi Guys,
If you read NHGrant's post, his problem is not a Siler lock. It is an L&R Queen Anne, which means he has a lug on the bottom of the frizzen that fits into the pan.  However, that lug serves to hide the fact that the pan and frizzen don't fit very well.  See my thread (posted above) on reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock.

dave

[borderdogs]

I haven't gotten to that part of my build but the lock I am using is an L & R Late Flintlock and has one of those lugs on the frizzen. I have inlet the lock in the stock but I haven't done any polishing or finishing or examine the fit I will check it when I get home. But is it typical to have a "fit" problem with these locks?
Rob

[Marcruger]

"Adding material will often be better than filing till the cows come home."

Now that is not a sentence you see every day.     I will file it away though.  May come in useful. 

[rich pierce]

"Adding material will often be better than filing till the cows come home."

Now that is not a sentence you see every day.     I will file it away though.  May come in useful.

Intentional? Good one!

[smart dog]

I haven't gotten to that part of my build but the lock I am using is an L & R Late Flintlock and has one of those lugs on the frizzen. I have inlet the lock in the stock but I haven't done any polishing or finishing or examine the fit I will check it when I get home. But is it typical to have a "fit" problem with these locks?
Rob

Hi,
It is less an issue on those because the pan is deeper.  The shallow pan on a Queen Anne does not accommodate the lug very well and it can prevent the frizzen closing all the way on to the pan and it compresses the priming in the pan.  It is stupid.  Moreover, rather than "waterproof" the pan, it wicks moisture right down into the pan.  It is stupid.

dave

[Bob Gerard]

The L & R Early Flintlock has that feature. I ground it right off, and deepened the pan. Works much better that way.

[borderdogs]

Thanks Dave,
Rob

[Nhgrants]

Thanks for all the replys.  After reading them and looking at the lock, I believe
It is the lug  preventing the frizzen from closing.  I'll remove the lug, flatten the top of the pan and then fit the frizzen. Maybe even try one on the guns turkey hunting.  Got a turkey 2 weeks ago on I89 near Royalton. Thankfully no damage to the car.