thinking ahead, kit comparison comments

[foresterdj]

Even though it seems to still be winter here in Bemidji (snowed 3" last night and all lakes up here still frozen over) I am thinking ahead for another rifle build next winter (I might have caught the bug). Wanting to do a .32 full stock "squirrel" rifle. Thinking of two options:

1. Kibler Southern Mountain Rifle kit - obviously, I could not go wrong with this kit, his products seem to be top quality for sure. A 44" profiled barrel, square bottom rifling is standard.

2. Muzzleloader Builder's Supply Lehigh/Allentown - a beautiful rifle (if I can do my part at least) and the stock curve just seems appealing to me. A 42" straight Rice barrel with radius grooves standard.

So, any comments contrasting these two options from folks who have built one or the other, or both?

I have read many strings about radius vs square bottom rifling, no opinion myself as I have no experience with radius style. Have also read many strings about the Lehigh style and cheek bite, but mostly in larger calibers/heavy loads, I doubt an issue in a .32.

I figure I should decide by mid-summer and order since wait times and back-order items may turn a summer order into a winter arrival.

[martin9]

There are suppliers that can make a precarve Lehigh for a swamped barrel also. Knob Mountain comes to mind and there are others. I've shot a lot of both radius groove and square and really don't have a preference either way. They both can be made to shoot well.

[Mike Brooks]

I pick #1

[Daryl]

I pick #1

Yep!

[heinz]

I pick number 1, flat bottom rifling.  Also think about a .40 cal, those 32s are hard to load with cold fingers, and who knows what will come visiting in Bmidji, Minnesota

[Mike Lyons]

#1.  You’ll have a perfect example of lock panels etc. to refer to when building your next gun. My second gun was the MBS Lehigh that you’re looking at.  It took me two more attempts at a Lehigh from a plank and a lot of information from the experts on here to finally get a nice example  that I’m satisfied with. You need to handle a nice Lehigh and put some time, effort and money into studying proper design before attempting one. 

[Daryl]

I would personally pick a .36 or .40.  I found here in BC in the winter, those little .32's were difficult for my overly large & old fingers to manipulate.
The difference from .311" to .350" is considerable.
I can' t imagine trying to load a .25 in the winter, not with my mitts.

[Dphariss]

Even though it seems to still be winter here in Bemidji (snowed 3" last night and all lakes up here still frozen over) I am thinking ahead for another rifle build next winter (I might have caught the bug). Wanting to do a .32 full stock "squirrel" rifle. Thinking of two options:

1. Kibler Southern Mountain Rifle kit - obviously, I could not go wrong with this kit, his products seem to be top quality for sure. A 44" profiled barrel, square bottom rifling is standard.

2. Muzzleloader Builder's Supply Lehigh/Allentown - a beautiful rifle (if I can do my part at least) and the stock curve just seems appealing to me. A 42" straight Rice barrel with radius grooves standard.

So, any comments contrasting these two options from folks who have built one or the other, or both?

I have read many strings about radius vs square bottom rifling, no opinion myself as I have no experience with radius style. Have also read many strings about the Lehigh style and cheek bite, but mostly in larger calibers/heavy loads, I doubt an issue in a .32.

I figure I should decide by mid-summer and order since wait times and back-order items may turn a summer order into a winter arrival.

Most radius grooved barrels are too deep IMO and since they lands are wide they load harder.

[Daryl]

I sure agree with the depth.  Decades ago, I tried to get Hugh to make one with only .008" to .010" deep rifling but he would not. Too bad.
It would have been easy loading, even easier than square rifling as well as cleaning more easily.

[Fly Navy]

Another vote for the Kibler kit, but I would go bigger than a 32. Also I really like the look of round bottom rifling.

[mgbruch]

I do a thing, in my head, when making decisions like yours.  I ask myself... what will I wish I had done six months from now?  Or a year from now?  I've built seven Southern Mountain Rifles (currently on number eight), so I like the Kibler gun.  Ive handled three Kibler Southern guns that others have assembled, and they are sa-weeet!  It's the ony SMR kit gun I would consider.  Can't speak to the Lehigh... but whatever you choose, DEFINATELY go with a swamped barrel.  A year from now, you'll be glllad you did.

[geb324]

Kibler i built A SMR  in .36 cant believe how more balanced that swamp barrel is i have built 10 long rifles with green mountain barrels straight octagon.

[Dave Marsh]

Another vote for Kibler. 

[Hunterdude]

And yet another vote for Kibler, I sold a very nice .32 mountain rifle to help fund the Kibler kit, the sold rifle had straight full hexagon all the way, the Kibler swamped barrel handles much better and had Much better architecture, so it was a win win situation for me.

[rich pierce]

Can’t say, as I don’t do kits, but have handled and shot a Kibler SMR and it’s a very nice offhand gun. In a small caliber you don’t have to sweat recoil. I guess it would come down to, how much work do you want to do to make it “yours” if that is of interest. You are comparing guns quite different in style and kits quite different in what’s required to build and finish.

[Scota4570]

Kibler 40 cal, regular rifling.  It will be an education on what a nice rifle should be. 

Chambers makes good parts sets.

Chambers aside, any parts set that uses a precarve stock is a gamble.  Guys with experience can probably make a nice rifle of it.  Time will likely be spent fixing unnecessary problems.  For instance the web between the ramrod and barrel may be to thick, making the rifle look clunky.  Or, the lock inlet will be in the wrong place.  Sometimes the wood is unusable.  I'd rather build from a plank. 

[smallpatch]

First, a question.
How many rifles have you built to date?
If this is only your second…….. go with the Kibler.

Second, a Lehigh with a straight octagon barrel will be unwieldy. Should be swamped.

Thirdly, a Lehigh is one of the most difficult to pull off. They are a peculiar style (which I love), but very difficult to do right.  Not a straight line anywhere.
If not done right, a real cheek slapper.
I’ve built a dozen or so, from a plank, and still learning the nuances.

A Kibler will give you a great opportunity to have a well designed, proper Southern gun, with minimal effort. Hard to screw it up.
Hope this helps.

[foresterdj]

Thanks for the many comments, it sent me reading through many other threads here and elsewhere.

I think the Kibler Southern Mountain Rifle in .36 is a good idea.

Never thought how skinny the ram rod on a .32 has to be, or how tiny the .32 RB are for cold fingers to handle

Like the idea that Hornady 000 buck at 0.350" will be a RB source, I have cast RB and bullets for years, but knowing more about lead contamination makes me lean more to buying when readily available.

My novice abilities certainly best suited to the foolproof Kibler kit.

Thanks all again.

DJ

[Goo]

Are you in a Hurry?   Kibler makes the best Kit available and you will be shooting ino time.   If self improvement and experience is your prize the dont buy a kit It will take a while but when you are finished then you will be a new and improved version of yourself. 

[borderdogs]

Hi DJ,
I have never built a Kibler but from what I have seen and read they are top notch. I built my first kit back in 1979/80 and then didn't build another until 2019 it was a full stock flint Hawken parts set from Pecatonica. It was a good place to start, again. Although I considered a Kibler I was more interested in a Hawken style and wanted the challenge the parts set presented. I didn't have any problems with the pre-inlet stock but what I found was the skills I needed to build the rifle I had to learn all over again. My goal was to build a rifle but speed wasn't a priority I was planning on building other rifles so I wanted to develop a skill set which the parts set helped me do. I made a fair many mistakes but one thing I learned (again!) is to think and be patience. Since that Hawken full stock I have built two other Hawken type rifles from parts sets; a percussion full stock light plains rifle and a percussion halfstock. I am currently working on a parts set flint Hawken full stock and a plank full stock percussion light plains rifle. When I finish these I have a plank and components for a percussion half stock with a short barrel to roughly copy the Wyoming short barrel Hawken. 

The point I am trying to make is think about what your goals are. The very first rifle I built back in 79 was a kit and it came out ok but it took almost a year to finish it. I had planned to build another but life got in the way. Any skills I learned from that experience I had to relearn. A Kibler will have all the layout done and the assembly will be straight forward with the result of a great rifle to own and shoot. A parts set is a different deal but for me it was what I wanted because of my goal.
I don't think you could go wrong with a Kibler great product and great support and if you haven't built a rifle before its a great way to start. But think about what your goals are and what you want to accomplish.
Best of luck
Rob

[Bob Roller]

Can’t say, as I don’t do kits, but have handled and shot a Kibler SMR and it’s a very nice offhand gun. In a small caliber you don’t have to sweat recoil. I guess it would come down to, how much work do you want to do to make it “yours” if that is of interest. You are comparing guns quite different in style and kits quite different in what’s required to build and finish.

IMHO most hard kicking round ball rifles are because of no thought at all ever given to the drop at the heel of the stock. I fired a precise copy of the Modena Hawken at the Hawken match at Friendship and I got an X10 on the first shot and had a fat lip to prove it.I placed 3rd in that match,offhand at 130 yards.The Modena copy was made by Tom Dawson and it was exact.The match was won by a non Hawken long rifle that had the recoil of a 32.
Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks for the many comments, it sent me reading through many other threads here and elsewhere.

I think the Kibler Southern Mountain Rifle in .36 is a good idea.

Never thought how skinny the ram rod on a .32 has to be, or how tiny the .32 RB are for cold fingers to handle

Like the idea that Hornady 000 buck at 0.350" will be a RB source, I have cast RB and bullets for years, but knowing more about lead contamination makes me lean more to buying when readily available.

My novice abilities certainly best suited to the foolproof Kibler kit.

Thanks all again.

DJ

I have had a .29 and a .32 and never had a problem with the ramrod or the size of the ball.

[rich pierce]

Seems like small bores load very easily. Less lead to deform, I guess. I only have a couple and both are originals around .38. And they have fat lands and small grooves which theoretically are harder loading.

[Marcruger]

"Most radius grooved barrels are too deep IMO and since they lands are wide they load harder."

My gracious.  This.  Ditto.

Deep grooves can be a bear to seal with any patching, and some cannot be sealed at all.  Blow-by around the patch causes velocity variations and poor accuracy.  It also causes a mess to clean, hence negating the "easy to clean" reputation of round bottom rifling. 

Shallow round or square grooves can work just fine.  Wide grooves and narrow lands are desirable in my opinion.  Narrow, deep grooves are awful, and none will live at my house. 

God Bless,  Marc

[DavidC]

Kibler because if you want to do a kit they're generally more precisely machined and will fit better from the get-go.

Chambers kits, and any other kits with a pre-milled barrel channel will usually warp enough from humidity and handling to make fitting the barrel a real PITA. I'd vote Kibler or if he doesn't have a stock shape you like ask of they can leave the barrel inletting for you to do. Sitting Fox got me a kit with no pre-cut channel for their dutch club butt kit.