Author Topic: cast in engraving?  (Read 1692 times)

Offline Bigmon

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cast in engraving?
« on: April 23, 2022, 04:51:08 PM »
Maybe a stupid question?  I am working on a fowler that the brass has some "sast in" engraving.  Very light and would not suffice as the finished product.  So what do you guys do in such a case?  Do you try and trace it with a tool?  Or maybe file and polish it away?
Engraving is something I have not yet attempted but it is on the short list.  I would like to at least sign my work, but actual decorative work like represented here will probably always be beyond what I really care to do.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2022, 04:54:48 PM by Bigmon »

Online smokinbuck

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2022, 05:24:58 PM »
I had a "miniaturized" punt gun built some time back and needed an oversized lock to fit it. We took a Pedersoli tower lock with cast in engraving, welded up the engraving, extended and deepened the lock plate then filed the lock plate to be round faced. Can't see any of the engraving or welding.
Mark

Offline T*O*F

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2022, 05:59:58 PM »
If you can't recut the engraving yourself, you have 2 choices.
If you want to keep it, send it to someone who can.
Otherwise remove it.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2022, 06:43:27 PM »
Pretty much what Dave said…, probably best to find someone to recut it if you don’t feel comfortable doing it.

One thing you might want to try…, scrub it with a maroon Scotch Brite pad and see how it looks.  Sometimes, the engraving shows up a little better than what you think.  Also, after you scrub it, use a piece of cloth with 44/40, which will turn the plate black.  Scrub it again to remove the black.  The black will remain in the low areas around the engraving and might just accentuate the engraving enough for your taste.  Worth a try I’d think.  Best,

       Ed
Ed Wenger

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2022, 09:12:05 PM »
I agree with sending it away to be engraved if you don't feel comfortable doing it but you don't have to be in a hurry, finish the gun first then get it engraved.

Offline smart dog

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2022, 12:12:02 AM »
Hi Bigmon,
As always, it is good to listen to Ed Wenger.  If you like the engraving design then first rub it with Scotch Bright pad or polish it a little with a fine stone dipped in paraffin or mineral oil.  Wipe it clean and see how it looks.  It might not be too bad.  If it looks pretty good, then carefully polish the brass, probably using stones and oil would be best and go easy.  It might come out just fine and you can always file it off if you don't like it.  While cast in engraving can be cleaned up with gravers, it is not as easy as you might think. You really have to cut it all over again because the slightly rounded edges of the cast-in engraving will look different from the fresh work.  Also, Bigmon, you should use lock screws with domed heads just a tiny bit smaller that the roundels on the plate.  The bolts with small heads you have installed really don't look right.   

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Bigmon

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2022, 03:40:07 PM »
Thanks ya'all for the advice.  As said, there is yet no hurry to decide.
As for the lock bolts, those are just hardware store 8-32's I use temporarily while building.  The correct bolts for the finished project seem to always get beat up during the course of the build.  When the gun is finished I will fit and finish the correct bolts.
But thanks.  At least they are not phillips heads! LOL

Offline smart dog

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2022, 04:34:02 PM »
As for the lock bolts, those are just hardware store 8-32's I use temporarily while building.  The correct bolts for the finished project seem to always get beat up during the course of the build.  When the gun is finished I will fit and finish the correct bolts.

Hi,
That is a very smart idea.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2022, 05:29:42 PM »
This is a brief that I wrote for the folks in my seminar that might shed some light on dealing with cat engraving.

CUTTING CAST ENGRAVING
Ron Scott 2022

Even the best quality casting with decoration will benefit from some amount of refreshing. Castings created from original parts often suffer from some amount of wear and hence, lost detail. Additional detail is lost in the process of creating a mold, shooting a wax; and investment casting. This is true, whether the cast object is high, mid or low relief or strictly engraved. I will attempt to share the process I have adopted in refreshing decorative details. How much recut you do is dependent on how much detail is fuzzy and the amount of time you budget into the project. A surprising improvement can be made by simply recutting the major outlines of figures and borders. Better results occur when all details (shading) are added. The most dramatic improvement includes the retexturing of relieved backgrounds in addition to the aforementioned recuts. I will list my process in order of work.


Straighten casting and remove casting sprues.


File and polish any areas that are smooth, without engraving.


Pickle part in white vinegar or similar acid to remove casting oxide (2-4 hours).


Scrub with baking soda and toothbrush.


Lightly highlight the surface with a polishing emery board (approximately 800 or finer grit).  This creates a better read of the engraving.


The visibility of faint lines will be enhanced by using a raking or low angle light.


You may find that some engraving was cut using a narrow  angle graver. Many of the ca. 1740s Jaegers appear to have been decorated with gravers of approximately 80 degree angles. I think it is important to retain the character, depth, and width of the original cuts, hence the reason I have gravers in 123,116, 96, 80 and 70 degree face angles. You will eventually find a need for a variety of flat gravers to increase or smooth relieved backgrounds.


I choose to cut the borders and primary figure outline first and proceed to the shading details. Since the cast surface has irregularities, such as pits, bumps, oxide, and even casting investment, you will notice a tendency for the graver to bog down or surge. To deal with this phenomenon, I make a light cut first to get a channel and a second cut to re-establish the width and depth of the cut. Shading cuts are often accomplished with a singe pass.

If one of your cuts has created a sharp edge in a figure with round contours, you will need to blend it to match. A ceramic stone retains its form well enough to control the shape of an edge and an extra soft 600 grit oil stone will reshape itself to polish the desired contour. Congress tool is a good source of these.


Relieved backgrounds are most often textured to give a further appearance of depth to the raised elements. While there are other textural styles, I will describe the most common to 18th century Jaegers. This is a stippled or beaded background, accomplished with punch, that features a cup on the point. The stippled  background  has a surface of half rounds across it. Stipplers in various diameters are available from most engraving equipment suppliers. They are inexpensive and break occasionally, so get several. I would suggest a bit of experimentation with stippling. The needed force of the hammer blow to the punch will vary with the type of metal you are working and if the casting has been annealed. Try to make the pattern of the beads fairly uniform; avoiding overlapping. I set my beads along the corners of a background,  around the edges, and then fill the center.


When all the recut and background work are finished, you will likely want to put a bit of gloss to the upper portions. This will enhance the overall illusion of depth. A jeweler’s polishing cloth or a cloth with polishing paste lightly buffed on the surface should suffice. If a more dramatic effect is desired, consider oxidizing the entire object with an antiquing solution or similar material to darken the entire surface. Then buff with the aforementioned cloth.


If  the casting is very fuzzy or has deep flaws, you might want to take a photo or a rubbing to record the details before proceeding to the process. This will give frame of reference in case of erasure during the clean up.


I think that you will find a better understanding of the style and tools of 18th century metal sculpting and engraving during the process of recutting a cast object.


I cannot over-stress the value of good lighting. My engraving bench has both direct overhead LED and low angle fiber optic lights. In addition, I can apply a UV filter to control glare.


Magnifying the object in some fashion is pretty much a necessity. I use a microscope designed for engraving. Dental loupes in magnification of 5X or greater would be a good choice.


I hope this brief description is of some assistance in getting started. The demonstration and discussion should help in the overall understanding of the process.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2022, 06:03:49 PM »
So right about good lighting.I a installing new lights in my shop even  though I plan to do little work this year beyond a few triggers.
Bob Roller

Offline Bigmon

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2022, 06:55:55 PM »
This is great, lots of valuable advice and help.  I only hope I am talented enough to get the results.
Thanks so much to all

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2022, 02:08:27 AM »
Thanks for sharing your process, Ron. I hope it gets put in our tutorials section.
Bob
South Carolina Lowcountry

Offline ed lundquist

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Re: cast in engraving?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2022, 03:38:21 AM »
Thank you Ron.