Black leather used?

[Rick Sheets]

Hello All,
I love all of the mottled, distressed brownish leather on these pouches, but I don't think I have seen a black pouch. Was black leather ever used originally? If so, when and where? Thanks, Rick

[Robby]

Rick,
        In the book "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch" by Madison Grant, there are many examples that he describes as "black calf skin" and "black cow hide". We're probably not allowed to reproduce pictures from the book, but some look very early, some look professionally done. Good book,by the way.
Robby

[brokenflint]

Rick   go to the blogspot for today, fourth photo down in cla bags 2009 show.  I can't remember if this was actually black originally or not.   I looked it over while at the show, and this is in TC Alberts book as well.  Maybe he can chime in here about color.  I just looked in TC's book yes it is black, there is also a couple of other black bags in the book.   So yes black is there.  But IIRC they fade very quickly, I'm no leather worker, only just recently (last two weeks) have made my first three bags so take my opinion with a grain of salt and a beer  .

Broke

[BrownBear]

"But IIRC they fade very quickly, I'm no leather worker, only just recently (last two weeks) have made my first three bags so take my opinion with a grain of salt and a beer "

I've had mixed experience with black.  Factory dyed, it holds its color well, but when I've dyed it myself, I never get the penetration, and as a result scuffing can reveal brown hide beneath.  Scuffing the factory stuff will "gray" it to a degree, but a quick rubdown with your favorite leather treatment seems to restore the color reliably.  I've used a variation on a shooting bag pattern to make camera bags, and the users are delighted.  In their hands and sometimes rough use, they report the same kind of graying in the factory dyed leather.

[Jefferson58]

Rick:

The prevailing opinion of the folks I have talked to seems to be that the originals were not usually a "true" black. It seems that they probably used a dark brown and through time, grease, and dirt accumulation, it appears more black. The original pouches I have examined that were "black" appear a little different under strong light.

Fiebings black will tend to smudge off if you use it, so most folks I know mix black with their brown shades to get an approximation of black. I have had pretty good luck with this technique, but have never dyed a pouch straight black.

Jeff

[Chuck Burrows]

The "common" black dye of the day was iron dissolved in vinegar, dependent on the tannage it goes from a very dark brown to a true black and blacking was a common finish especially on harness, it was not just brown that got dirty/oily  - that statement is based on researching the actual methods used.

This recipe is from a 19th Century harness maker's manual but is the same method that was used much earlier:
VINEGAR BLACK
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner (note: some folks today get the turnings from brake drums, but any chunks of iron will work - the smaller the better as they will dissolve faster) and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.

For the deepest black, apply a bath of strong black tea first (this increases the tannins) and let it soak in good, then apply a generous amount of the vinegar black. Let set for about a half hour and then rinse with a mix of baking soda and warm water, about a 1/8 cup soda to a half gallon of water, apply  let set for a few minutes and then rinse off. While still damp apply a light coat or two of your favorite  oil/conditioner front and back. Once dry top coat as normal
Experiment - I test a piece of each new side of leather without oiling to see how well it takes the blacking, if need be I'll do a second black tea mix to darken, then apply the oil which also helps darken. I've been using the above method to blacken veg/bark tan leather for over 40 years.

This one of the easiest blacks to use and does a MUCH better job than any of the commonly available black dyes plus unlike black dyes it won't rub off since the black is due to a chemical change. Unless leather is vat dyed for a great length of time the color can and will scuff and show the underneath but that's the nature of the "beast" even in the past.
I don't have any examples of bags but here is one of a gun rig that I made and dyed with vinegar blacking:



it also "ages" well - giving that "rusty" black look -


Another period "blacking" was/is logwood dye...

[Ken G]

Chuck,
Beautiful work as always! 
Ken

[G. Elsenbeck]

Rick, you have a great question and appears that Chuck has hit the nail square again.  Most of the bags I've made have used the 'vinegaroon' recipe and method and turn out as in Chuck's black example earlier.  I also believe alot of us use different browns and black combinations in attempts to achieve a look that would closesly resemble a well used, or somewhat older, hunting bag.  Again, trying to get to Chuck's second example.  By adding some wear patterns, a little more aging here and there, then you get to close of the 'old brown' look. 
However, I must have to say that a good friend of mine that happens to be a chemist  informs me that 'vinegaroon' is not an 'acid' and does not need a 'neutralization' of any bath.  Once this solution is applied to leather it reacts with the tannin that is there and will not get any stronger or weaker.  It just happens.   When I did my research on making/'using vinegaroon I didn't come up with any mention of 'neutralizing' so all my items that have used this black have always turned out looking great, especially after applying pure neatsfoot oil.  So far, either I, or my customers are mentioning any ill effects of not neutralizing. 
Perhaps Chuck I'm using or making a 'weak' vinegaroon solution and therefore no need to perform the next step?   Or, my 'friend',  is either yanking my chain or does he truly speaketh the truth?

Gary

[BrownBear]

Special thanks to Chuck and Gary.  This thread has been priceless to me.  I've been trying to get that look in leather for quite awhile.  Yeah, I can make it look like that coming off the bench using modern dies, but it looks like heck after a bit of wear.

Hats off to you both!

[Artificer]

Chuck,

Thank you for that fabulous post on vinegar black dye.  If you don't mind, I have some questions as I'd like to try that.

When you wrote "pure vinegar cider" - is that pure apple cider vinegar?

After talking with the blacksmiths at Colonial Williamsburg and others over the years, I've gotten perhaps the mistaken impression that "real" iron is hard to get today.  Are brake drums made of real iron and/or does it matter?  What I'm thinking is maybe it is best to seek out a blacksmith who does period work and works in real iron - then buy a small chunk of iron and file it to get the shavings?  Or am I making a mountain out of an ant hill?

[Artificer]

Something I learned from an old saddler in the 70's was is you do use modern leather dyes and want the best black, you need to dye it first with a base color.  If one wants a brownish black, then dye it with medium or dark brown first.  If one wants a really rich black, dye it with royal blue first.  After you dye it with either color first and then dye it black, add the conditioner and let it dry - when you look at it in just the right angle in the sun, you will see just a trace of the brown or blue show through. 

I have no clue if royal blue was used as a base coat in the 18th or 19th century.  I think it was available as I've seen a few royal blue dyed leather items in the DeWitt Wallace Decorative Arts Museum there.  But, that may have only been the products of more advanced leather working trades.

I didn't know about the vinegar black dyes when I made a lot of 18th century military cartridge boxes and 19th century cap boxes and cartridge boxes in the 80's, so I used fiebing's dye in the colors mentioned above, back then.   Many reenactors are very hard on their leather goods and many of them never give the leather another coat of oil or conditioner as long as they have the pieces.  Even so, the black color done this way seemed pretty durable.

[Chuck Burrows]

Glad to be of help - and to answer some questions:

1) Any vinegar will in fact do to make this - white or apple cider vinegar - I prefer apple cider myself and I'm sure that's what the original recipe meant. It's in fact the acetic acid in the vinegar that dissolves the iron.
2) Pure Iron is and always has been difficult to come by - most iron ores also contain traces of such things as copper, manganese, phosphorus, and sulphur - this can be determined by chemical analysis of old iron/steel which I've seen quite a number of and none were pure iron. Many folks use old barb wire, bailing wire, wrought iron, black (water/sewer) pipe, etc. Some folks will also tell you to never use modern steel wool, but I and many others have successfully used it with no real problems - the only thing is it needs to be degreased, but that's just matter of dunking it in acetone, squeezing the excess out, and then let dry. When using steel wool I tear it into small pieces. Also when using this mix for a leather "dye" it does not need to be rusty, although rusty can/will aid in getting that old look like in pic #2 above.
FWIW - Both pieces above were done using vinegar black made with steel wool - the black black was just degreased while the old look was done in part by burning the steel wool and allowing it to rust before making the mix.
3) the older the mix is in many ways it is better since it off gases most of the volatiles so it doesn't smell as strong
4) When making mine I put a small hole in the lid of the container (plastic or glass will both work fine) I'm using to make the mix in - I usually make a mix of 1 qt vinegar to 1 1/2 pad of steel wool or the equivalent. Just increase the amounts to make a larger batch.......Once a batch is ready I start another so I always have some on hand.
Hope this helps and any more questions ask away...

[Chuck Burrows]

However, I must have to say that a good friend of mine that happens to be a chemist  informs me that 'vinegaroon' is not an 'acid' and does not need a 'neutralization' of any bath.  Once this solution is applied to leather it reacts with the tannin that is there and will not get any stronger or weaker.  It just happens.   When I did my research on making/'using vinegaroon I didn't come up with any mention of 'neutralizing' so all my items that have used this black have always turned out looking great, especially after applying pure neatsfoot oil.  So far, either I, or my customers are mentioning any ill effects of not neutralizing. 
Perhaps Chuck I'm using or making a 'weak' vinegaroon solution and therefore no need to perform the next step?   Or, my 'friend',  is either yanking my chain or does he truly speaketh the truth?

Gary - from a chemist standpoint I know the term "neutralization" is incorrect, but it's one I've used so long that I forget that I should explain further.
The baking soda bath does two things in my experience
1) Helps darken the color (why? ask a chemist I just know it does..)
2) It "neutralizes" the odor faster than just rinsing with water and letting it air, whihc in my case helps speed production......

[Artificer]

Chuck,

Thanks so much for the additional information.  I use so much acetone in my day to day work I buy it by the gallon and I've got plenty of steel wool to use.  That is really a handy tip.  Not sure if the apple cider vinegar might give the dye a further depth of color, but it may and I'll go get some of that to use. 

Again, thanks a bunch for sharing the information.

Gus

[Artificer]

Gary,

I am not writing this to be critical of your friend the chemist, but just putting some thoughts down about the use of the baking soda solution Chuck mentioned.

I am certainly not a chemist, but I got to thinking that vinegar is acetic acid and tannins are tannic acid.  Both are extremely mild acids to be sure, but I'm not sure how the vinegar (acid) could be neutralized by the tannins (acid) in the leather.   To neutralize an acid, you need a base and that's what the baking soda is/does.  

I"m wondering if the chemist meant the vinegar would neutralize any left over lye in the hide from the dehairing process, if lye was used for that purpose?  A vinegar solution used to be used for that purpose in tanning as it neutralized the caustic lye but didn't react too harshly with the tannins.  

Maybe they used the baking soda to neutralize the effects of any left over active acetic acid "vinagaroon"  (sp?)  to ensure it wouldn't react with metals when/if the leather was not oiled enough over time?  We know that pentrating oil neutralizes the effects of the tannins in the leather as the oil and tannic acid formed "tannate" salt that doesn't affect metal.   This is part of the reason there are so few leather scabbards left for original 18th and 19th century swords and bayonets.   If you store the swords and bayonets for long periods in scabbards (as one might think to do to provide protection from sharp edges or points) the leather will rust and pit the metal unless you oil the leather enough from time to time. So it is best to store leather scabbards separately from the swords or bayonets.  

Since leather in the 18th century and early 19th century was soaked for long periods in offal and urine solutions as part of the tanning process, maybe they were more concerned with the acetic acid in the vinegar affecting that in some way?  From what Chuck wrote about baking soda neutralizing the smell of the vinegar faster, perhaps they used the baking soda to neutralize any left over urine or feces smell that may not have gotten properly washed out?  I have smelled POORLY tanned "urine" tanned leather from Mexico and you don't notice the smell UNTIL the weather gets it wet as if from being outside in a downpour.  Then it gets downright rank and I'm one who isn't affected too much by drilling antler or sanding rawhide mallets.  Grin.

Chuck's other experience with the baking soda solution making the leather darker might have been the main reason it was used.

Maybe the answer was just that long ago they realized baking soda neutralized vinegar, so they used it "just to make sure."  I can appreciate the latter as I used to use oven cleaner to strip M1 Garand stock sets.  I washed and scrubbed and ran gallons of water over them to ensure the lye and other chemicals in the cleaner were washed out.  However, when the second stock set around about the 150th set I did turned green under the oil, I quit using oven cleaner completely.  This even though I only had a "failure rate" of 1 1/2 percent due to chemicals not being washed away or neutralized.  

What I do know is that there was some good reason (or at least they thought there was some good reason) for doing it or they never would have made it part of the original formula.  It's a shame we don't know more about "why" they did different things back then and what they were thinking when they did it.  

Gus

[T.C.Albert]

I thought the @#$%/!! was used to bate a hide that was dehaired by a concentrared lime bath...lime speeds the dehairing process...strong lime speeds it more...but the leather then must be bated to restore it for tanning....if the hide is dehaired slowly with weak ash or even by soaking in a creek till it slips...the poo part can be skipped....or so I understand it..
TCA

[Artificer]

There is still at least one tannery in the UK where they use urine and feces.  It was on a show about the dirtiest jobs in the UK.