What is this feature on the pan of this shotgun lock?

[Mike_StL]

Both the right and left lock have this hole in the pan cover of the frizzen.  It lines up with the touch hole in the late flint period side by side.  What is the purpose?

[LynnC]

Does the hole in the frizzen line up with the vent on the gun?  Perhaps prick the vent without losing the prime. My best guess....

[Daryl]

I am assuming self-priming.  After firing, pull cock back to 1/2 bent, then close the hammer. When loading, powder from the charge will be pushed/blown out that linked hole
into the pan. Gun is ready to fire as soon as the loading rod is removed from the bore.
Just a guess.

[Mattox Forge]

I am assuming self-priming.  After firing, pull cock back to 1/2 bent, then close the hammer. When loading, powder from the charge will be pushed/blown out that linked hole
into the pan. Gun is ready to fire as soon as the loading rod is removed from the bore.
Just a guess.

That can be the only explanation. The hole is instantly going to be moved out of alignment with the vent as soon as the flint strikes the hammer negating its usefulness during ignition. Self priming was a desired feature back then.

Mike

[Ky-Flinter]

Playing the devil's advocate here.  Why is a hole to the outside needed for a self priming pan?  If the gun is tilted in the wrong direction, the priming will run out thru the hole.

Ron

[Dennis Daigger]

The engraved "Patent" on the lock plate is a clue that will probably lead you directly to the function of the hole so that guessing isn't necessary. I've never done a patent search but there seems to be someone on just about all of the serious gun forums that can. There is a vast array of patent info on line now from many countries. Maybe someone here can give you a hand with searching the British patents.
Dennis

[smylee grouch]

Would you even be able to pic the vent with the frizzen down? 

[Mattox Forge]

Playing the devil's advocate here.  Why is a hole to the outside needed for a self priming pan?  If the gun is tilted in the wrong direction, the priming will run out thru the hole.

Ron

I believe these might help explain what I am thinking.
This is what we normally see. Sometimes there is a groove cut in the bottom of the pan cover to allow the vent to be fully open to the pan.


I think this is what we are looking at on the Staudenmayer lock. A hole cuts through the pan cover into the pan. This would presumably seal the pan up more completely. I bet there is a patent drawing out there somewhere.


Hope this helps,
Mike

[Mattox Forge]

Looking at the lock some more, I am willing to bet that there is a raised portion around the vent on the barrel that the pan and pan cover wrap around when the pan cover is closed.

Mike

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Playing the devil's advocate here.  Why is a hole to the outside needed for a self priming pan?  If the gun is tilted in the wrong direction, the priming will run out thru the hole.

Ron

Ron, I do not see an exit on the outside of the pancover...only a hole from the inside of the cover out toward the barrel.

[Mike_StL]

There is only the hole from the barrel to the pan cover.  I need to take a look at the barrel to see if there is a protrusion that mates the recess leading to the hole in the pan cover.

The size of the hole seems small.  What granulation of powder would be used to ensure that powder will flow into the pan?  It's too small for 2fG.  I'm not sure if 3fg would flow. I guess I need to measure all the holes.

The two locks have the same patented hole in the pan cover. 

The shotgun is stored in its original case.  Speculation tells me this was a shotgun used for shooting multiple birds at a high rate of fire, therefore the necessity of speed in the loading process.

[Mike Brooks]

Self-priming feature.

[Pukka Bundook]

Going off memory,
This small hole is smaller than the touchhole, and is a patent idea I believe originally  of John or Joseph Manton.
The idea being to prevent any powder from sitting directly over the touchhole.  I wish I had my Manton books as I can see the patent pictures clearly i my minds eye, and the photos of the lock with the lip!
Something about allowing free air travel whilst loading, from the days when a pan was primed first, is lurking in my memory too....

was it that the small hole concentrated the air as the load was rammed, heating it so that no moisture remained in the breech ?

This is agony!
Wish I had not loaned my books years ago and not got them back! 

Mike, I don't think self priming.
I know Col. Hawker said if you owed someone  a grudge, encourage them to get  a self priming lock!..They always go off slow, he said!

Smart Dog will know.

[Daryl]

Self-priming feature.

I was sure that was it, however the vent would have to be awfully high compared to the pan's horizon for this to work in that manner.
I had a lock with a really high vent - horrid deal. We had to make a vent liner with an angled hole, for it to give almost normal ignition.

[Bob Roller]

At one time there was a "Patent Mania"in England and one spoof was a patented gun that went off in several different directions at the same time and killed everything in sight.I tend to agree with the self priming idea and maybe if the gun were loaded it could be proven one way or the other.These ultra fine locks were made to try to forestall the oncoming fulminated systems being tried that finalized in the percussion cap.Great history and magnificent relics for us to study and speculate about now.
Bob Roller

[Mike_StL]

Looking at the condition of the lock and all the other signs of minimal use, I wonder if this did not work as well as planned and this shotgun saw little use.  Still, this is a very interesting lock and worthy of the discussion on this board.

[Bob Roller]

Looking at the condition of the lock and all the other signs of minimal use, I wonder if this did not work as well as planned and this shotgun saw little use.  Still, this is a very interesting lock and worthy of the discussion on this board.

Many of these fine guns seen today are very "low mileage".They were status symbols for the wealthy that possibly seldom ever fired them and cased sets with all the tools were common.Look at the frizzens and that will tell about the use or lack thereof.
The mechanism in the lock shown is a simple one and I have made a lot of them in my days as a lock maker.
Bob Roller

[Longknife]

Mike STL, . can you show pics of the rest of the gun?...LK

[Pukka Bundook]

Gents,
This is not a self priming lock I am sure.

Here are a couple more.  Same idea.
I sure wish I had my books. Smart Dog  Dave P will know for sure.







Yes, all kinds of patents at thet time. some very good, others just for sales.
Bob R.
Many of these guns were used hard. the more wealthypatrons had tome to indulge in their passion for sport.
my old double has had the hammers refaced at least twice .

[Mike Brooks]

I have the books out in my shop, ill look today.

[Bob Roller]

What is that device in the outside of the lock and what are those notches on the cock??
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

What is that device in the outside of the lock and what are those notches on the cock??
Bob Roller

Different type of 1/2 cock lock, or safety, it appears.
It would disengage when pulling the cock to full bent position.

[Mike Brooks]

When you hold the gun vertical to load it with self priming feature your Frizzell are closed. That little gizmo automatically blocks the cock from falling until the gun. Is back in the horizontal position.  The circular part is actually a weight, probably platinum

[LynnC]

On the Jos Manton lock pictured above, there is a large screw at the breast of the cock. Is that some kind of adjustable cock stop or what is its purpose?

Upon closer inspection that looks like the lock screw and it is backed out. It would normally be screwed down and partially hidden behind the cock.

[Bob Roller]

On the Jos Manton lock pictured above, there is a large screw at the breast of the cock. Is that some kind of adjustable cock stop or what is its purpose?

Upon closer inspection that looks like the lock screw and it is backed out. It would normally be screwed down and partially hidden behind the cock.

Or it can be an ill fitting screw as a replacement. That explanation of the counter weight/safety makes sense.There is a lot to study and learn about these guns and what one of us does not know another one will and then share it.