Author Topic: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB  (Read 18377 times)

Offline hanshi

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2009, 09:21:46 PM »
Long ago I taught pistol craft.  My students were taught that a handgun would always wiggle on and off target.  With practice this wiggle would become sort of a "circle" (and get smaller and smaller) and this was preferred.  Trying to hold steady on a fixed point is exceedingly difficult and impossible for most of us.  This way most rounds would fall into a regular pattern around the bulls eye and get tighter with practice. 

This is how I shoot with everything.  Perhaps it is misleading-in my case at least- to refer to it as "pulling the trigger as the sights drift toward the bull".  I know I don't really pull the trigger hoping the gun will fire at the desired instance.  It is just as likely to do a 90 degree and you can't always control that.
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Offline Frizzen

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2009, 10:54:37 PM »
AHhh Yes, I can't hold on the X ring on the 25 yd. pistol target, I just try to keep my front sight
in the black, with a center hold. As long as the sight is in the black, which is the 9 10 and X rings
I'm trying to get my finger to squeeze the trigger so the thing will fire. Sometimes it fires in the
X ring, sometimes in the 9 ring. Now when I shoot my Flintlock pistol, it's a whole different
ballgame. When I'm firing in the 9 ring, by the time the ball actually is gone from the muzzle, the
sight has moved back into the 10 & X rings. I shoot my flint pistol better than my percussion. Now
when I am firing and the sight is in the X ring my shot will be a wide 10 or 9. But if you think about
it, I can hold better in the 9 ring than the X ring. So I think that's why I shoot better flint than cap.
Does any of this make any sense? My cap fires too fast to shoot accurately.
The Pistol Shooter

Daryl

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2009, 02:20:17 AM »
 My cap fires too fast to shoot accurately.

Interesting observation.  My flintlock pistol fires very fast, as fast as any flintlock rifle, yet I shoot better with a caplock pistol or rifle, both of which go off exactly when I want them to, just about like a modern centrefire or rimfire pistol or rifle.  The rimfires are a wee bit closer to muzzleloaders as bullet/ball barrel time also has to be held through.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 02:21:15 AM by Daryl »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2009, 06:53:52 AM »
Long ago I taught pistol craft.  My students were taught that a handgun would always wiggle on and off target.  With practice this wiggle would become sort of a "circle" (and get smaller and smaller) and this was preferred.  Trying to hold steady on a fixed point is exceedingly difficult and impossible for most of us.  This way most rounds would fall into a regular pattern around the bulls eye and get tighter with practice. 

This is how I shoot with everything.  Perhaps it is misleading-in my case at least- to refer to it as "pulling the trigger as the sights drift toward the bull".  I know I don't really pull the trigger hoping the gun will fire at the desired instance.  It is just as likely to do a 90 degree and you can't always control that.

Pretty much my take too.
Perfect is very difficult with out a scope. I shoot for center but don't try for perfect every time, well I do but it don't work that way.  However, indoors with a schuetzen hold and no wind I can stop a rifle where I want it or very close long enough to break the shot *if* in practice. ::)
I used to win a lot of 50 ft 22 offhand matches shot in street clothes as practice for BPCR silhouette. The guys I shot against were not push overs either. But we were using scopes. I have a harder time with irons and have not done much of this in over (well over) 10 years.
Outdoors is a different situation.

Dan
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Mike R

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2009, 04:41:32 PM »
I have shot open sights offhand since the age of 5 [60 yrs ago], for many years just with a .22.  I have found that my caplocks act much like the .22s as far as aiming goes, but all of that 'experience' [eye-brain-muscle-training] have been hard to overcome with my flintlocks.  Whereas shooters were taught in my day to squeeeeeeze off shots-- that works best from a rest.  The offhand shooter sorta 'snap shoots' and the sight picture becomes instinctive--I have to think now about what it looks like--and it varies with each rifle I have. A good ofhand shooter trains himself to hold steady, even if for an instant--then he snap shoots IMHO. Just last evening I caught a theiving squirrel in one of my bird feeders--he dashed to a high fork in a tree near the patio [we live in a rural area where I can shoot--even so, I use .22CB caps for safety] and I just raised up my little Stevens Favorite and shot him through the head--he toppled off immediately and never flinched....all I remember is seeing the sight picture I knew was 'right'.  I think I move the sights into alignment and snap shoot.  My father was an 'instinct shooter' and simply point shot--yet he could drill a nail at 50 feet offhand with a .22 and iron sights [fixed ones on his learly 1900s little Remington pump].  Scopes bother me because they magnify the wobble--I don't even notice wobble the way I shoot iron sighted rifles.  Now, flinters have a slight noticeable delay--even fast ones--compared to a .22 [or my caplocks].  I have not yet developed the best techinique, needing to unlearn 60 yrs of shooting style...

northmn

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2009, 06:10:45 PM »
I know shooting a bow, without sights, there is a tendency to shoot around the center of the target and one may be doing so with an offhand rifle.  The old idea of picking a very small aiming spot on a deer or aiming at the squirrels or rabbits eye.  You may miss what you shoot at but hit very close and get the critter or a good score.  A very good shot I knew liked to really work on getting his first shot centered so that he could aim at the hole.  If his first shot was an X then he could do pretty good.

DP 

Daryl

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2009, 09:16:59 PM »
I know shooting a bow, without sights, there is a tendency to shoot around the center of the target and one may be doing so with an offhand rifle.  The old idea of picking a very small aiming spot on a deer or aiming at the squirrels or rabbits eye.  You may miss what you shoot at but hit very close and get the critter or a good score.  A very good shot I knew liked to really work on getting his first shot centered so that he could aim at the hole.  If his first shot was an X then he could do pretty good.DP 

That is how Taylor shoots his longbow.  When shooting instinctively with a bow, any bow, recurve, longbow or compound as I do, shooting 'around' the bull is sign of not concenrating on a small enough spot.  This is why a hole in the centre helps - same with sights.  The larger the target, the larger the group.  Threading a ball or bullet through branches to a gong target as we do often on our trail, will usually produce more accurate shooting (if there actually is a hole, that is)compared to when the target is large as life and easy to see, out in the open.

Offline Artificer

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2009, 12:30:47 AM »
Long ago I taught pistol craft.  My students were taught that a handgun would always wiggle on and off target.  With practice this wiggle would become sort of a "circle" (and get smaller and smaller) and this was preferred.  Trying to hold steady on a fixed point is exceedingly difficult and impossible for most of us.  This way most rounds would fall into a regular pattern around the bulls eye and get tighter with practice. 


That "wiggle" is what the Marine Corps calls your "natural wobble area."  By using a lot of dry firing practice, one strengthens the muscles needed to hold the rifle or pistol more steady and that lessens the wobble area or the amount of wiggle off target.  Dry firing also teaches you to pull smoothly and hold the rifle smoothly as the cock or hammer falls and the rifle goes off.  You still keep aiming and holding until "the ball has had a chance to hit the target."  That ensures you have good follow through.

You can also lessen the wobble area by establishing a natural point of aim by positioning your body and feet so that when you bring the rifle up to where it "feels" right, you should be looking straight in the center of what you are shooting at.  You check that by closing your eyes and bring the rifle up.  Then open your eyes and see how far off the mark you are.  You then move your feet and try it again until when you open your eyes, the sights are centered.   While it may sound complicated, it takes less than a minute to establish the natural point of aim for off hand shooting.

I spent 23 of my 26 years on active duty around some of the finest shooters in the world.  Only one or two of the best could "make the gun go off" by deliberate will when they got it in the center of the target.  Most folks trying that wind up flinching the shot off center and that includes National, International and Olympic competition. 

What the overwhelming majority of the best shots say is to "accept your wobble area" and pull smoothly on the trigger while keeping the front and rear sights absolutely aligned as perfectly as possible.  Don't worry as you wobble in and out of your natural wobble area that the front sight won't be perfectly aligned at all times and let the rifle go off when it does naturally.  Keeps you from flinching or jerking a shot off call. 

The only thing you should do when using this method is that if it takes so long for the shot to go off, it is better to take the rifle out of your shoulder and take a couple of breaths and start again.  If you try to force the shot after holding it up too long, it is almost sure to be a flyer. 

I'm not a world class shot by any means, though I did tie 8 other Marines in history by shooting a 249 out of 250 on the Re qualification Range at Quantico.  I don't know exactly when they established the Rifle Range at Quantico, but I think it was in the 1930's.  I was the ninth Marine to fire a 249 and no one had fired a 250 when I retired in 1997.

I had shot expert with the pistol maybe seven times when I went through the NRA Police Firearms Instructor Course. You have to shoot 90 Percent scores with the pistol and shotgun and get at least 90 percent on the final exam to pass that course.   I had only "just" made expert with the pistol each time before graduating that course,  though by maybe only 10 to 15 points.  For whatever reason, "the lights finally came on" about perfect alignment of sights and accepting my wobble area, etc. and from then on - I always fired high Expert with pistol as well.  It also helped me to Tie the "All Time Record" with the rifle mentioned earlier.   I finished my career with 13th Rifle Expert award and always fired Expert with pistol to make that a straight run of 12 Expert awards. 

I would this technique to instruct my young Armorers on shooting the pistol before they went to qualify.  Many of them had never fired a pistol for more than maybe 5 or 10 rounds of "familiarization fire," prior to qualifying.  I ran an average of about 75 % of even those Armorers firing expert using these techniques. 

BTW, it doesn't matter whether the rifle or pistol is a Matchlock or the most modern super duper whatchamacallit,  these techniques work on all of them. 

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2009, 03:43:32 AM »
Long ago I taught pistol craft.  My students were taught that a handgun would always wiggle on and off target.  With practice this wiggle would become sort of a "circle" (and get smaller and smaller) and this was preferred.  Trying to hold steady on a fixed point is exceedingly difficult and impossible for most of us.  This way most rounds would fall into a regular pattern around the bulls eye and get tighter with practice. 

Thanks Arti for that information it was carefully read.... aim small, miss small is then important to keep in mind..  :)

That "wiggle" is what the Marine Corps calls your "natural wobble area."  By using a lot of dry firing practice, one strengthens the muscles needed to hold the rifle or pistol more steady and that lessens the wobble area or the amount of wiggle off target.  Dry firing also teaches you to pull smoothly and hold the rifle smoothly as the cock or hammer falls and the rifle goes off.  You still keep aiming and holding until "the ball has had a chance to hit the target."  That ensures you have good follow through.

You can also lessen the wobble area by establishing a natural point of aim by positioning your body and feet so that when you bring the rifle up to where it "feels" right, you should be looking straight in the center of what you are shooting at.  You check that by closing your eyes and bring the rifle up.  Then open your eyes and see how far off the mark you are.  You then move your feet and try it again until when you open your eyes, the sights are centered.   While it may sound complicated, it takes less than a minute to establish the natural point of aim for off hand shooting.

I spent 23 of my 26 years on active duty around some of the finest shooters in the world.  Only one or two of the best could "make the gun go off" by deliberate will when they got it in the center of the target.  Most folks trying that wind up flinching the shot off center and that includes National, International and Olympic competition. 

What the overwhelming majority of the best shots say is to "accept your wobble area" and pull smoothly on the trigger while keeping the front and rear sights absolutely aligned as perfectly as possible.  Don't worry as you wobble in and out of your natural wobble area that the front sight won't be perfectly aligned at all times and let the rifle go off when it does naturally.  Keeps you from flinching or jerking a shot off call. 

The only thing you should do when using this method is that if it takes so long for the shot to go off, it is better to take the rifle out of your shoulder and take a couple of breaths and start again.  If you try to force the shot after holding it up too long, it is almost sure to be a flyer. 

I'm not a world class shot by any means, though I did tie 8 other Marines in history by shooting a 249 out of 250 on the Re qualification Range at Quantico.  I don't know exactly when they established the Rifle Range at Quantico, but I think it was in the 1930's.  I was the ninth Marine to fire a 249 and no one had fired a 250 when I retired in 1997.

I had shot expert with the pistol maybe seven times when I went through the NRA Police Firearms Instructor Course. You have to shoot 90 Percent scores with the pistol and shotgun and get at least 90 percent on the final exam to pass that course.   I had only "just" made expert with the pistol each time before graduating that course,  though by maybe only 10 to 15 points.  For whatever reason, "the lights finally came on" about perfect alignment of sights and accepting my wobble area, etc. and from then on - I always fired high Expert with pistol as well.  It also helped me to Tie the "All Time Record" with the rifle mentioned earlier.   I finished my career with 13th Rifle Expert award and always fired Expert with pistol to make that a straight run of 12 Expert awards. 

I would this technique to instruct my young Armorers on shooting the pistol before they went to qualify.  Many of them had never fired a pistol for more than maybe 5 or 10 rounds of "familiarization fire," prior to qualifying.  I ran an average of about 75 % of even those Armorers firing expert using these techniques. 

BTW, it doesn't matter whether the rifle or pistol is a Matchlock or the most modern super duper whatchamacallit,  these techniques work on all of them. 

Daryl

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2009, 07:27:29 PM »
With enough practise at shooting offhand, the gun will go off when the sights are right, whether good single trigger, or set triggers.  It takes a lot of practice to get to this 'stage' in shooting and some never do, where no concious effort is made to 'pull' or 'squeeze' the trigger.  I attained that automatic trigger squeeze, way back when I was shooting 3-position, starting with a 3 pound trigger which through a rule change was reduced to 2.2 pounds.  A 2.2 pounds (1 kilo) the 'pull' was so light, the gun fired itself.  Of course with a muzzleloader and set triggers, front trigger set at about 3-4 oz. as-is my .17 cal. varmint rifle's set trigger, this should be easier yet, however I've lost the ability to fire the gun automatically, and regret it immensely. I now have to squeeze off every shot - set triggers or good singles make it a lot easier to hit with.

Offline hanshi

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2009, 10:25:56 PM »
The posts by Mike R and Artificer got me to thinking.  Obviously, my training and experience brought me to embrace the concepts and practices they commented on.  I, too, have found the acceptance of "wobble zone" to be very prevalent among the better-and best- shooters.  This is what they teach and what they practice.

On many occasions, shooting both targets and game, I've brought the rifle to bear with an instantaneous "snap" shot that hit perfectly.  This includes handguns as well.  In these cases it just felt "right".  Body position, sight alignment and sight picture all fell together immediately resulting in an almost perfect hit.  A rifle stocked to fit my lop made this easier of course.  Open sights were always much more likely to allow this to happen.  Scopes don't work so well for me with this type of shooting.

I hesitate to call it snap shooting as the trigger is not jerked nor the shot hurried.  It's as if the gun does it all and my job is only to hold it up.  At least this is how it seems to me.  Everything considered, it appears the quicker I shoot the better I shoot.  Thanks, guys, for bringing this up.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2009, 10:53:02 PM »
In Daryl's and Hanshi's last two posts they talk about the rifle almost going off by itself at the perfect time.  Some shooters describe that as "being in the zone."

What happens there is the shooter is allowing the subconscious mind to fire the rifle and keeping the conscious mind from worrying about a bad shot or thinking about a host of other things that would cause the conscious mind to screw up the shot. That is why we teach so strongly to concentrate the conscious mind on perfect sight alignment and not worry about anything else.   When a shooter is in that mental zone, the shooter usually does fire the rifle faster as well because the subconscious mind is doing it.  This has been known for hundreds of years, especially in Oriental Martial Arts, though it has only really been studied and taught for shooting in the last 50 or 60 years.

In the movie, "The Last Samurai",  Tom Cruise kept getting whacked with the wooden practice sword and could not make any head way.  Then, the son of the Japanese Lord told him he had "Too Many Minds" and strongly suggested he use "One Mind."  Then Tom Cruise went into the mental zone where he concentrated on the sword and did much better and much faster.  The Samurai have spoken for centuries about the sword having it's own mind when used properly and they are actually talking about the same thing = the user going into the mental zone where the sword (or gun in our case) seems to go off by itself because the subconscious mind is doing it.

I'm not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist and I hope the real experts excuse my poor attempt to describe this mental zone.

Leatherbelly

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2009, 05:09:08 PM »
 Yep,no mind!
Re; "The Wobble Zone", Had a heck of a time with this when I started shooting pistol. The barrel kept going around in little circles.  I had to step back and analise the situation. With the help of an expert pistoleer and friend, his advise was to take my "death grip" off with my right hand, and take a lighter but firm grip, and with my left hand squeeze it over my right hand. Wow,what a difference! The little circles went away and I started hitting targets.

Sorry,Salkahatchie, for contributing to this thread going south. BTW, I did use 3f in my pistols. 2f is for rifles!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 05:25:29 PM by Leatherbelly »

roundball

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2009, 05:30:35 PM »
BTW, I did use 3f in my pistols. 2f is for rifles!

In YOUR rifles maybe  ;D

Offline George Sutton

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2009, 05:02:59 PM »
I use 3F in everything from .32 to .75.

I believe the "Wobble Zone" is more of a horizontal figure eight pattern than a circle.

If I'm teaching someone to shoot, I teach them to concentrate on the front sight and target.

(You can also lessen the wobble area by establishing a natural point of aim by positioning your body and feet so that when you bring the rifle up to where it "feels" right, you should be looking straight in the center of what you are shooting at.  You check that by closing your eyes and bring the rifle up.  Then open your eyes and see how far off the mark you are.  You then move your feet and try it again until when you open your eyes, the sights are centered.   While it may sound complicated, it takes less than a minute to establish the natural point of aim for off hand shooting.) POSTED BY ARTICIFER.

The above statement is very important. If your body is not aligned to the target and you twist your body to bring the gun into alignment, you are bringing more muscles into play, that puts more unneccessary strain on your body. When shooting you should be relaxed not tense. Gripping the rifle too hard, holding it up too long all play a factor. Breath control is very important also. Try to relax and call the shot. When the gun goes off your brain should tell you where the bullet hit even as the gun is recoiling.

I have my new shooters shoot at a blank piece of paper and then shoot at the hole. The smaller the target the more concentration required. Don't be satisfied with putting them all in the black when the goal is to hit the ten ring. It is most important to concentrate on that front sight. Trigger control will come with practice. If you have to force the trigger you will never become a good shot.

There, I have pontificated enough. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

Centershot

Daryl

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2009, 08:29:21 PM »
I've tried to use a circular 'pattern' of aiming, but find I end up with more movement than a steady climb or drop provides. At times, the rifle's sights seem to want to come in from the side. This should be an indication that your foot postion is incorrect and if fired with horizontal movement, will usually lead to shots off to the side you swung in from, as the gun moves back that way due to body torque at the instant of firing. You may or may not have noticed I hold the forefinger of my left hand down the entry pipe, pointed at the muzzle.  I find this helps eliminate the side to side horizontal shots, reducing the rifle's movement to up and down, rather than up and down as well as side to side. This helps eliminate shots off to the side and makes hitting easier, offhand.  I read about it in a precision offhand long guns with heavy muzzle weight shooting text and tried it - it works for me as well.  This was a long time a go, and can't remember where I read it.  This form of holding is much easier on the back than the exagerated, hand close to the lock, hip-dislocated Swiss style, which actually causes nerve spasms for me.   

Offline Salkehatchie

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2009, 04:21:20 AM »
Sorry guys, been a long week!

Fantastic info, and no problem going off tangent.  Some of the particulars sound like some of the tips and old Texas Ranger had told me when I was just a kid.

I will try to incorporate many of these tips next time out.

Thank you!

SPG

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Re: 2F vs 3F for large caliber RB
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2009, 07:57:30 AM »
Gentlemen,

Letting the target pull the trigger has always worked well for me...when my feet and hands are right, the rifle swings right and left through the target...horizontal swings usually mean that my left hand isn't in the right place for a good hang.

However, I've always noticed that a healthy wager tightens up my hold.

Steve