Author Topic: short barreled Jaegers  (Read 1690 times)

Offline thecapgunkid

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short barreled Jaegers
« on: May 05, 2022, 11:56:54 PM »
Is there a trend or pattern as to where the Jaegers with short barrels were made?  Were there a lot of them in North America that were made here as opposed to carried in an Immigrants baggage?

Thanks

Capgun

Offline Jakob

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2022, 01:43:32 AM »
Well, I'd argue that Jaegers were made in Europe and anything made in the US would be a 'transitional' rifle. I don't know if you could/would call the Morovian guns 'Jaegers', but I'm sure that there's people here who will know.

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2022, 02:01:43 AM »
Will someone please explain to me and my simple mind exactly what this “Transition” term means. I’ve been in the game all of my life. Read all the books, studied all the pictures. I’ve spoken with all of the experts out there and often into great detail. The American Longrifle was never in a static phase and constantly changing from 1765 until 1865 and could be successfully argued right up to the modern age. All that was needed was for an apprentice to advance to master and to develop his own style. Tell me what and when exactly was this Transition phase. I would argue that we are continuously in transition. Transition Translation Please!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 02:10:53 AM by Stoner creek »
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Offline Frozen Run

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2022, 02:24:23 AM »
Wayne brings up a good point and it is one that frustrates me as well. Is it possible that "transitional" is the jb weld of jargon in regards to muzzleloaders?

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2022, 02:29:16 AM »
 The first mention of Transitional came along about the time that our great friend Don Getz started marketing a 38” swamped barrel. I had never heard or seen the term prior to then.
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Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2022, 03:15:14 AM »
O)K, so, then, leaving out the transitionals, what about the Jaegers?

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2022, 03:44:07 AM »
O)K, so, then, leaving out the transitionals, what about the Jaegers?

Short barreled “Jaegers” were predominantly made in Continental Europe.  There may have been some built here in North America, but I’ve personally never seen any.  I wouldn’t doubt there are some with far better knowledge than me who might have.  Irregardless, they certainly weren’t prevalent. 

The vast majority of the “Jaegers” we see here today (originals), were war trophies, from various places in Germany, that were brought back by returning GI’s after the Second World War.  What a lot of people don’t realize is that these rifles were made all over Continental Europe.  I would be willing to bet that if most people were shown a Russian, Hungarian, Romanian, etc. piece, they would automatically exclaim “Jaeger”!  We’re just so attuned to the German version because that’s typically what was brought here, not by immigrants, but by returning GI’s.  Also, if you visit museums in Germany and other countries on the continent, you’ll see more than a few of these rifles with much longer barrels.  Best,

           Ed
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Offline Lucky R A

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2022, 04:23:08 AM »
        Well, Jaegers were a product of European craftsman and were made in many different style or "schools."  Depending on their use, Jaegers might have had anywhere from a very short barrel (Stutz) to a relatively long barrel up into the 40" length.    Early writings often reference short German guns being imported into the colonies.  Remember, it took colonial gunmaking time to get ramped up, so imported guns were sought.  Some of the early gunmaking is covered thoroughly in the Moravian books written by Bob Lienemann.
         The early gunsmiths, such as Albrecht, Dickert and others, were European trained and thus applied this training to produce guns that were in demand in the colonies.  These early guns were usually thick in the butt with fairly flat buttplates, but longer of barrel and smaller of caliber than their European counterparts.  These guns are often referenced as Transitional or Evolutionary  guns to denote that they still retained European influence but were becoming the colonial rifles that were used up through the Revolutionary war. 
        Change has continued through the Golden Age and into the Late Flint period, then into the percussion period; however, these changes do not represent the transitional phase which ended with the fully evolved colonial rifle. 

Ron
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Offline Ron Scott

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2022, 05:16:26 AM »
I'm curious what length constitutes a short Jaeger?

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2022, 05:37:32 AM »
Short enuf to carry in a canoe!  ;D

Offline Jakob

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2022, 06:31:14 AM »
These guns are often referenced as Transitional or Evolutionary  guns to denote that they still retained European influence but were becoming the colonial rifles that were used up through the Revolutionary war. 

This was how I understood the term.

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2022, 02:28:42 PM »
        To answer Ron's question, the Stutz (short barrel Jaeger) Had barrels usually running from 12-16".   There is a nice video of shooting an original on www.capandball.eu.   There is also the 1793 Versailles carbine which was made with a 16" barrel length.  So, unlike "canoe" guns the short barreled Jaeger is well documented.    another Ron
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Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2022, 02:35:40 PM »
Guys,

Took a great vacation to the Czech Republic.  If you think that Germany is home to the "Jaeger" - think again!  If you like Jaegers, go and visit Zleby Castle - too many to count, but wear a drool bib!  If you love Jaegers, wear Depends!

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2022, 03:25:35 PM »
Thabnks Luck and James.  Mine in the vice is about 20" barrel length.   Not interested in Transitionals or Canoe Guns, but would just like to know to what extent they were made over here.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2022, 04:37:40 PM »
We have no idea what american made rifles looked like prior to about 1760 or so. There were probably a few short barreled guns made early on (1740s) with imported German barrels.  The move to longer barrels seems to have happened fairly quickly as there are very few American rifles with short barrels that have survived compared to long barreled rifles. I wouldn't call dickerts work "transitional". A better term is early. In fact I have always thought transitional was a ridiculous description. Evolution is a far better descriptive term. Don Getz may have been one of the first to use the term transitional to sell his 38 inch barrels. TOTW pushed the term real hard too....still does.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2022, 07:06:31 PM »
Is there a trend or pattern as to where the Jaegers with short barrels were made?  Were there a lot of them in North America that were made here as opposed to carried in an Immigrants baggage?

Thanks

Capgun
To the OP again, of all the short barreled germamic gun tha exist in the USA today probably  99.5 percent arrived here in a GI duffle bag in the mid 1940s.
I believe them to be incredibly rare if they are made in North America in the 18th century.
 Stoner Creek owns the only one I know of and nobody knows where in NA it was made
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Offline DavidC

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2022, 07:15:52 PM »
Can we clarify what we're defining as short here? I've heard 12-16 inches for the cap and ball channel posted gun but what would be the cut off for a length that indicates a NA origin is unlikely? Around 36-38"?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2022, 07:29:31 PM »
Short is less than 34-36.
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Birddog6

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2022, 04:29:11 AM »
When I thought of building my first Jaeger, I was told repeatedly it had to be between 28 -32” barrel length. After some lengthy research, I found some as short as 16” & as long as 51”. So I decided to make what balanced well for me to deer hunt with, and some distance between sights. Thus most of mine are 28” to 36”, prefer 31” as it gives the the sight plane I want & not too heavy. I have one 36” but itis a tad heavy in .54 cal. Will be making another in .62 to knock the weight down a tad.

Offline alacran

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2022, 01:56:02 PM »
I made one with a 37-inch barrel in .58 caliber. It weighs 9.25 pounds. the one I recently made with a 25-inch .61 caliber barrel weighs 7.30 pounds.
When it comes to Germanic guns you can find whatever length you want. Even guns that look like a club but fowler.
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Offline Keith Zimmerman

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Re: short barreled Jaegers
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2022, 10:15:48 PM »
My original Jaeger with a 36in barrel weights about 7.5#, actually less.  Its a .62 with 1/24 twist.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 10:23:36 PM by Keith Zimmerman »