Author Topic: Wobbling flint cock  (Read 1094 times)

Offline Bob Gerard

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Wobbling flint cock
« on: April 16, 2024, 06:36:45 AM »
On my flintlock pistol, the small Siler lock has a “loose” hammer (cock). It can wobble slightly side to side and forward and back. Nothing major but I would prefer it not do that. (It’s the second small Siler lock that I have had this issue with).
It was suggested to me to slightly pean the square hole that the tumbler shaft slips in to tighten it up. I may try that, but am a bit nervous I won’t get it right and mess it up more.
I was wondering if a bit of JB Weld to the shaft and cock might resolve the wobble? (Not sure if it could withstand the shock of the hammer fall). It could be unattached if need be with heat.
Third option would be to ship it out for the work but don’t know who to contact. I have heard of  Brad Ewing who does lock work but I have no contact info.
If anyone has suggestions I am all ears.
I would appreciate recommendations.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 06:40:01 AM by Bob Gerard »

Offline togo

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2024, 09:07:14 AM »
My buddy had the same exact issue with a brand new small siler he bought from Chambers, he also paid extra for the massage treatment. I'll see what he did to resolve that issue. His lock delivered spark as needed but the wobble bothered him.

Offline JLayne

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2024, 12:32:25 PM »
Is it an older lock with a problem that has developed over time due to wear, or is it a new lock that came to you with the problem? I’m no expert, but I would probably first try replacing the tumbler, the cock, or both if replacements can be found. If it is a newer lock, then the vendor may send replacements free of charge and/or fix it for you. Of course, if the idea is that you want to do the work just for the experience of performing the repair, then I would defer to others on the site who are more knowledgeable about the subject.

Good luck.
Jay

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2024, 01:01:42 PM »
The lock came to me new with this problem. The vendor had waited a long time for a supply of small Siler locks. This is what finally came in.  And no, he didn’t offer to replace it but suggested peaning the cock to tighten it up.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 01:16:34 PM by Bob Gerard »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2024, 02:25:27 PM »
Hi Bob,
I fix this problem all the time on folks' guns.  In most cases just use the ball on a small ball peen and peen the underside of the square hole.  Usually it does not take much just a little metal moved.  If that does not work, the next step is to do the same on the top but make sure the peening is covered by the tumbler screw.  The next step if that doesn't work is to use a small cold chisel and strike just the corners of the square on the underside of the cock.  If the problem still persists after that, it probably is time for the welder or a replacement part.  Also Bob, make sure the square post is recessed slightly in its hole so the tumbler screw tightens the cock against the shoulder on the tumbler rather than the end of the square post.

dave
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2024, 02:32:10 PM »
 Cabin Creek is the company to contact for lock work. Either Brad or Shane Emig can help you

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2024, 03:21:35 PM »
Hi Bob,
I fix this problem all the time on folks' guns.  In most cases just use the ball on a small ball peen and peen the underside of the square hole.  Usually it does not take much just a little metal moved.  If that does not work, the next step is to do the same on the top but make sure the peening is covered by the tumbler screw.  The next step if that doesn't work is to use a small cold chisel and strike just the corners of the square on the underside of the cock.  If the problem still persists after that, it probably is time for the welder or a replacement part.  Also Bob, make sure the square post is recessed slightly in its hole so the tumbler screw tightens the cock against the shoulder on the tumbler rather than the end of the square post.

dave

This is the best way to resolve your issue, it's also the easiest way without using any welding equipment

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2024, 03:22:42 PM »
Before you go hammering or piening the tumbler keyhole in the cock, you need to check to make sure (1) that the cock is entirely pressed onto the tumbler all the way to the shoulder of the tumbler (where the round bearing surface meets the square portion).  Pretty much all modern locks allow for a tiny amount of the round bearing surface to protrude through the plate to ensure the cock doesn't bind on the plate, so the back of the cock should butt up to this shoulder.  Once you have checked this and are assured of it, (2) make sure that the square portion of the tumbler is not protruding out beyond the face of the cock which would prevent it from being tightened properly.  Assuming that it is not protruding, make sure that there is a little bit of a countersink of the threaded hole for the tumbler screw and make certain that the tumbler screw can be tightening firmly against the face of the cock - i.e., there should be no gap showing between the underside of the tumbler screw and the face of the cock if held up to the light.
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2024, 03:25:23 PM »
I find it hard to believe this lock maker would let this slide and not replace the defective "cock".Get a new one and case harden the square hole before installing it.
Bob Roller

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2024, 03:25:40 PM »
Fluxing the square hole in the cock and adding braze works too but requires filing to fit. It doesn’t ever loosen like the peening approaches sometimes do over a long time.
Andover, Vermont

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2024, 04:59:16 PM »
A friend had one like that and we used the hammer ball to move some of the Steel back towards the hole. It seemed to work but then we " tinned " the inside of the square hole with soft solder to fill any gaps and drove the cock back on the shaft. That was in the early 70s and its still working.
 

Offline J.M.Browning

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2024, 05:25:59 PM »
Raspberry peen or any form of peen or exaggerate a edge  is a temporary fix at best - if the cock was not loose & became compromised from use the fix is parts replacement with the correct fitment tolerance & hardness.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 05:33:00 PM by J.M.Browning »
Thank you Boone , Glass with all the contemplate I read with todays (shooter's lightly taken as such) , you keep things simple .

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2024, 05:41:32 PM »
Lots of ideas to go about this. I may try the least intrusive method first with a small shim. I appreciate everyone’s suggestions!!

Offline TDM

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2024, 06:47:49 PM »
Lots of ideas to go about this. I may try the least intrusive method first with a small shim. I appreciate everyone’s suggestions!!

That is what I would try first. I think it will be a success.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2024, 06:51:12 PM »
I just looked at my unused small siler.  The cock is proud of the plate by .056".  It is also crooked on the tumbler.  When I get around to using it I will reduce that gap significantly.  The gap is ugly to me.  The virgin material is an opportunity to continue the square mortice taper down significantly.  It may be enough to tighten the OP's cock without peening, if his is like mine. 

I make a thick washer of the target depth  and work the tumbler against it with a safe side file.  I use marker to tell where the two pieces touch. 

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2024, 06:51:51 PM »
Shimming has worked well for me when dealing with antiques, but it took a while before I realized there seemed to be a fly in the ointment.  The looseness tends to develop at the corners, with relatively better contact at the center.  A shim of uniform thickness will snug up on the center first.  The corners will remain a little loose and the cock will again loosen up over time.  The shims work best if "L" shaped so they stays in place in the cock as it is pressed onto the tumbler.  What follows is a bit of a pain, but I believe it will make for a better fit and is what I intend to do in the future.  With a round needle file, file the center of the shims thinner, so they will make better contact at the corners.  It will likely mean using thicker shims.
Time will tell if I have over analyzed the problem.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 07:10:48 PM by bluenoser »

Offline satwel

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2024, 11:16:01 PM »
I had this same problem with a Miroku Bess lock. Flintcock had a fair amount of wobble. I tried the subtle peening technique first but that didn't work to my satisfaction. Luckily I found a gunsmith about 20 miles away that advertised a micro welding capability for small steel parts. I took the flintcock to him and asked that he add a thin layer of steel to two sides of the square hole that touched in one corner. That way I figured I'd only have to file two sides of the square. He did a very neat job and of course I had to file back about half of the newly added layer of steel. I started with a four square file then switched to diamond files as I got closer to the final dimension. It was a lot of work but now the flintcock fits tightly on the tumbler post with no wobble.

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2024, 12:39:27 AM »
Least intrusive method is to contact Jim Chambers flintlocks.

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2024, 12:50:08 AM »
----^^^^^---This---^^^^^---

Offline smart dog

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2024, 01:58:05 AM »
Hi Bob,
Lots of suggestions.  Peening can be a perfectly permanent solution given the strength of the materials.  Chambers parts are good quality steel and they will hold up for years and years, and years with a simple peening.  My post described a series of steps.  Why?  Because I deal with this all the time on peoples' locks and I've seen a lot.  Shims are no better solution and a pain in the butt.  When wear happens it is usually in the corners of the square hole. That is why I described striking the corners with a cold chisel.  I know this from dealing with scores of locks with loose flint cocks and examining original locks with the same procedure done to them. Finally, most original flint cocks made from iron were case hardened.   Modern locks usually are not but I case harden and temper them and the lock plate because most modern locks show peening and mushrooming of the shoulder of the cock and the bolster of the lock plate if they are soft. That also prevents wear in the square hole. 

dave
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2024, 02:53:59 AM »
 This ain’t a federal case, good grief, upset it with a small chisel about the width of the squared part of the tumbler. About an eighth of an inch behind all four sides of the square hole. And if you are worried about it harden the hammer once it’s fitted. I hope you shoot enough, and live long enough to wear it out.

Hungry Horse

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2024, 05:09:31 AM »
Ok - going to follow Dave’s advise (again) on this one.
Thanks again everyone.
I came to the right place 😉

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2024, 04:26:55 PM »
Ball pean and case harden. Like Dave says. OR just get a replacement cock and hope the tumbler is not undersized.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Wobbling flint cock
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2024, 09:07:08 PM »
This is caused by a poor fitting cock to begin with.  We use a tumbler with a square that is slightly tapered.  This paired with a corresponding hole in the cock makes for a very secure connection.  I'll also note, that some who are inexperienced will snap a lock with out a flint to slow the travel of the cock down.  This puts a whole lot of pressure on this connection and can really loosen up something that's only marginal to start with.

Jim