Alloys used to cast replacement lock parts

[smart dog]

Hi,
I will call Barbie this week but I wanted to run this question by you guys as well to see if any of you have an answer.  I often anneal frizzens on Chambers and all other commercially made locks so I can engrave on them.  It is really hard to engrave hardened steel.  Then I have a standard case hardening and tempering regime I've used for years very successfully. I case hardened a frizzen for a Chambers round-faced English lock and when quenched it cracked.  In my many years of doing this, I've only had one other Chambers frizzen do that.  Anyway, I had a replacement frizzen bought through Track of the Wolf but the casting was a dark gray color unlike any replacement parts I've obtained directly from Chambers, which are a light gray color. I fitted the new frizzen just fine but something is very different with respect to heat treating it.  It appears to need a higher heat to harden properly.  I typically case harden frizzens at 1575 degrees and temper them at 375-400 degrees.  I really don't like going much higher than that for hardening.  Do any of you know if TOW has a third party casting Chambers parts that may be using a different alloy steel than Chambers?

dave

[Jim Chambers]

Dave,
As far as I know Track does not cast any replacement parts for our locks.  When we get cast parts back from the foundry they are always a light gray  color due to the sand blasting cleanup process they use.  Parts that are to be hardened and tempered after casting are first packed in a carbon rich material, heated to 1600 degrees for 4 to 5 hours, and slowly cooled.  This does two things:  it restores the carbon lost in the surface of the part during casting, and it softens the part so that it can be drilled or (in the case of springs) have the tension set.  This heating process always gives the part a dark color.  So, the frizzen you received is simply a raw casting that has been annealed.
In the case of frizzens, we heat them to around 1550 using an oxyacetylene torch burning a carbonizing flame and quench in a light oil.  If our frizzens are quenched in water they will usually break at some point.  We draw them back at around 390 to 400 for one hour.
Hope this helps.

[smart dog]

Thanks Jim,
That is a huge help!

dave

[Goo]

I had some lock parts cast at a small foundry in Columbus OH several years ago 9 (Now bought out and no longer available). While I was there I saw plastic bins with enough waxes for 1000 complete gun locks for one very highly regarded MFG. on this forum.  The techs were forth coming when I asked about the alloys they used they told me they had cast my springs from 8120 and my frizzens rom 1095.  Perhaps it should be standard practice to provide part alloy information along with the casting runs and pass that info along with the locks.  I would like to encourage those of you on this forum who produce locks and parts to do this.  Maybe come up with a letter code to imprint on the parts lest say A=1095 B= 8120 L=mild steel etc. and so forth it would take the mystery out of what you are working with when the rest of us buy your stuff not mention it would just be ethical trade practice and good customer service. 

[Jim Chambers]

Here are the alloys we use for all of our locks:
Frizzens - 1095
Springs - 6150
Tumblers, sears and flys - 01
All other parts are 8620

We will gladly share this info with anyone who asks.  Having to stamp a letter code on each part would be a bit of overkill in my opinion.  Besides, how would you stamp a code on a fly?

[rich pierce]

Here are the alloys we use for all of our locks:
Frizzens - 1095
Springs - 6150
Tumblers, sears and flys - 01
All other parts are 8620

We will gladly share this info with anyone who asks.  Having to stamp a letter code on each part would be a bit of overkill in my opinion.  Besides, how would you stamp a code on a fly?

Fly swatter waffle mark? I had some of those on my backside as a kid. Downside is they eventually fade. 

Thanks for the info; good to have this. Appreciate the efforts you go to to restore carbon to frizzen castings. Obviously works!

[Bob Roller]

In the mid 1980's I had about 150 plates,frizzens and cocks made for a German shop and I got the frizzen spring from Jerry Devaudreuil and they were 6150.The frizzens were 52-100 and the plates and cocks were 8620.Almost all of these were made into locks and sent to the shop of Helmut Mohr for target pistols.The internals were sear and fly were 0-1 and the tumbler 1144 and the main and sear springs were 1075,forged.Before that I had another batch of about 100 made and so far no problems.The lock was a close copy of a Nock and very similar to the current L&R small Manton. The main difference was in the shape of the pan.Internals as described made by me.
The frizzen spring I got from Jerry we originally for the Chet Shoults Ketland and I used in on a Ketland that came from moulds of unknown
origin.I called it a Ketland because a local man who was the only flintlock shooter in the tri state area had a 40 caliber rifle with an identical lock that was plainly marked "Ketland" on the plate.Most of these went on "Flint Hawken"fullsrock rifles and 6 went to Switzerland to a woman.Jerry Devaudreuil is now dead and there is hope all the moulds he had can be saved and there are a lot of them he bought from H.C.Hess who did business as International Arms in Livonia,Michigan.He also had the moulds for all the parts for the Russ Hamm locks,and there were several Hamm made other than the Maslin.
I have used a few of the external parts from the Chambers Late Ketland with my linked mechanism and it worked really well and I wish now I had made some more.
Bob Roller

[Goo]

Here are the alloys we use for all of our locks:
Frizzens - 1095
Springs - 6150
Tumblers, sears and flys - 01
All other parts are 8620

We will gladly share this info with anyone who asks.  Having to stamp a letter code on each part would be a bit of overkill in my opinion.  Besides, how would you stamp a code on a fly?

Easy enough to alter the injection mold then it gets imprinted each time you shoot a wax model