JS Hawken in old auction- authentic?

[HighUintas]

Does anyone have any additional information about this rifle or know of it's authenticity?

 It looks to have some features similar to another "JS Hawken" that sold on guns international. That gun reportedly was thought by Don stith to be authentic (though that info was given by someone else, so it may not be true) and another guy told me he knew it was not authentic. So hmm.

https://www.liveauctionworld.com/item.aspx?i=19846643

[rich pierce]

Says stamped S Hawken. It’s in the range of authentic but I’m surprised at the tang not having the usual shape. More strap-shaped on this one. Bet the buyer was convinced it was authentic.

[Shreckmeister]

I think I have the 1964 Gun Report they reference on the auction site.  I'll be curious to see what it says.

[louieparker]

It looks good to me.  I looks to have been refinishes though.. LP

[HighUintas]

The description says they think it was originally a JS and then was later rebarreled at a later date.

Yes, the note on the tang shape is interesting. I played hooky from work today and went by the LDS church history museum in Salt Lake City and checked out the Mormon pioneer John Brown's JS Hawken that was purchased in 1845 before he went West. I got quite a few pictures, although they're poor quality due to the gun being in a case and the lighting surrounding it being poor.  I'll post them later today. The tang on the John Brown Hawken is not beaver tail shaped... It is the same as the one in this auction listing and the one on the guns international listing. It has the comma shaped breech bolster, single piece tang/breech (no hook), FS of maybe 36-40" barrel, barrel keys, .66cal, long trigger plate with scroll guard and no guard extensions.

[RAT]

This is the same rifle illustrated in one of the "Accoutrements" books by Johnson. I forget the volume number. He states...

"Hawken Rifle. Signed in two lines on barrel. "S. Hawken" with "St. Louis" below. Total length is about 50 inches with a .36 inch (note typo) straight octagonal barrel, .50 caliber, rifled. Early J & S features on the breech, trigger guard, and toe plate finial. Fullstock with straight grained maple and iron hardware."

I don't see any "early" features. I'm a firm believer that, if it's stamped "S. Hawken" it proves it was made AFTER Jacob's death in 1849. Many try to come up with convenient excuses to explain otherwise. If you have to make up stories, It just doesn't work.

This rifle has all the classic features of an S. Hawken rifle made during the 1850's. The percussion bolster style is correct... the long through-double-bolted trigger plate with integral front and rear finials... the trigger guard attachment... all of it. The tang IS hourglass in shape... Which is a later feature. It's just not a standing/hooked tang. The tang and patent breech plug are one piece. The Atchison 1836-dated rifle has an earlier tang 2-screw style.

I'm not dissing this rifle... it's always been one of my favorites. The rear trigger plate and toe plate finials and different, but not unique. I've seen photos of at least one other rifle with these finials. They look more southern mountain rifle in style, which I like very much. It shows variety apart from what the typical late/standardized/1860's rifles had... which is nice to see. It shows that Sam Hawken liked to add individual details to his rifles.

I love this rifle... but it's not early... it's an S. Hawken... not a J. & S. Hawken... it wasn't made during the 1830's... it was made during the 1850's... it's a perfect example of the rifles made for those heading west for the California gold fields.   

[HighUintas]

Are you saying the rifle in the listing I linked is the same as the one in the book you referenced? The listing describes this rifle as 52 caliber and puts a comma between S Hawken and St. Louis , which to me.indicated that they're next to each other and not having one below the other.

Do you happen to have better pictures of it? The listing pictures are extremely poor quality.. that's hard to fathom anyone paying 20K based on those pictures!

[JTR]

The listing describes this rifle as 52 caliber and puts a comma between S Hawken and St. Louis , which to me.indicated that they're next to each other and not having one below the other.

The picture clearly shows the S Hawkin and St Louis stampings one below the other, and not in a single line.

The stampings aren't completely clear, but are one above the other.

[HighUintas]

The listing describes this rifle as 52 caliber and puts a comma between S Hawken and St. Louis , which to me.indicated that they're next to each other and not having one below the other.

The picture clearly shows the S Hawkin and St Louis stampings one below the other, and not in a single line.

The stampings aren't completely clear, but are one above the other.

That's true! My apologies. I had only viewed those images from my cell phone. For some reason, their web site decreases the image clarity on a cell phone web browser. The pictures are much much better on a computer. The tang is also very clearly beaver tail shaped.

[RAT]

It's the same rifle as indicated by the number (PL3) painted on the cheekpiece side of the stock. The only photos I have are the photocopied pages from the book. I might have the volume number written down someplace. I'll look for it later today. I don't own a copy of the book.

In my experience barrel length and caliber are rarely consistent in written descriptions.

[RAT]

Here's the book info...

Accouterments II
By: James R. Johnston
Published By: Golden Age Arms Co.
Pgs. 27, 28, & 29

No publishing date was listed on the title page. The book is out of print, but available through some libraries.

[RAT]

I said I have photos of another rifle with similar toe plate and rear trigger plate finials. That rifle is in the Cody Firearms Museum at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, WY. It is nearly identical and also has the one piece patent breech and tang. The lock bolt washer is different and the percussion bolster a bit less detailed. It is also stamped "S. Hawken" "St Louis"... but in a single line... not stacked in 2 lines as this rifle is. This rifle and the one in Cody were probably made within a few years of each other in the early 1850's. They are slightly later than the one owned by John Brown (purchased in 1845) in the other thread.

[moseswhite]

This rifle came out of a museum in California , The stamps are correct for the time period approximately 1849-1853 . It has all hand forged hardware which is correct for that time period. The stamps stacked on top of each other is unusual but you see it occasionally . It all looks correct but it is not a J & S Hawken . The PL3 painted on the butt stock is the museum tag number . The purple finish on the stock was applied by a contemporary gun maker per the request of a gun dealer to add a false patina to the rifle . Personally I would have left it alone and I probably wouldn't do anything to it now either .