Mormon pioneer John Brown, J&S Hawken

[HighUintas]

Here are some photos of John Brown's fullstock JS Hawken. . I apologize for the poor pictures. It was in a case butted up against another display and the lighting was awful. I did my best!

It's 66cal and resides at the LDS church history museum in SLC. I think the barrel is between 36-40". Percussion... You can see the lock is marked Adolphus Meier. This rifle was purchased in 1845 in StL, prior to Brown heading west. An interesting feature is that the breech and tang are one piece without hook and the tang has no beaver tail shape like many of the documented ones. It is straight back to the tip from the breech plug.

[mr. no gold]

HU, you went to a lot of trouble to get these photos.Thank you for doing that and then bringing them in to be seen by all of us. Nauvoo, Illinois has John Browning's gun shop preserved in the old town down by the river. There are a lot of his effects there and some guns made by him. Odd that being the fine builder he was to stop in St. Louis to pick up a gun from the Hawkens. He had a good eye and bought a real fine rifle fort the long hard trip to Zion.
Dick

[LynnC]

Thank you for the photos. First, I am no Hawken expert. What i find most interesting is the fore stock profile appears to be V shaped ahead of the entry pipe. V shape with a radius then almost an inclined flat to the barrel side flat although it seems to have once had an oval shape muzzle cap. I could be all wrong. Its just what the photos seem to indicate. What are your observations.

[HighUintas]

HU, you went to a lot of trouble to get these photos.Thank you for doing that and then bringing them in to be seen by all of us. Nauvoo, Illinois has John Browning's gun shop preserved in the old town down by the river. There are a lot of his effects there and some guns made by him. Odd that being the fine builder he was to stop in St. Louis to pick up a gun from the Hawkens. He had a good eye and bought a real fine rifle fort the long hard trip to Zion.
Dick

This rifle was owned by John Brown, not John Browning who was the father of the famous J M Browning. Yes, the staff at the museum were fairly confused when I told them I was looking for a rifle owned by John Brown... they kept showing me rifles owned by John Browning

[HighUintas]

Thank you for the photos. First, I am no Hawken expert. What i find most interesting is the fore stock profile appears to be V shaped ahead of the entry pipe. V shape with a radius then almost an inclined flat to the barrel side flat although it seems to have once had an oval shape muzzle cap. I could be all wrong. Its just what the photos seem to indicate. What are your observations.

Yes the stock cross section between the entry pipe and first barrel key could be considered V shaped, or maybe heart shaped. The nose cap, which is missing, looks like it would have been oval shaped. It appears that between the entry pipe and first key, the stock has a curve from the top of the channel down a ways and then is flat down to the RR channel. Closer to the muzzle where the RR channel is tapered down to the web area, it becomes more oval. I think this shape is due to the height of the stock. The belly of the stock to the top of the top barrel flat looks enormously tall; this might partially be due to the width across the flats of the barrel. I don't know what that dimension is, but I'd guess it's huge due the bore being 66 cal.

I am doubtful they would let me, but I plan to email them soon to see if it is possible to set up an appointment to be able to take some measurements from it. I am guessing this rifle is very heavy.

[LynnC]

Thanks for the detailed description. Just goes to prove the value of the advise, “must handle originals”. Thanks again.

[Clark Badgett]

The full stocked Hawkens were the 'economy' line so to speak. It's not at all odd for the breech and tang to be less refined and less featureless when you keep that in mind.

[rsells]

Thanks a bunch for the photographs.  I have several parts in house that I plan to use to make a rifle similar to this one.  Your photographs will help a bunch when I start down the road to build this one.
                                                                                       Roger Sells

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thank you for the photos. First, I am no Hawken expert. What i find most interesting is the fore stock profile appears to be V shaped ahead of the entry pipe. V shape with a radius then almost an inclined flat to the barrel side flat although it seems to have once had an oval shape muzzle cap. I could be all wrong. Its just what the photos seem to indicate. What are your observations.

I agree that the forestock's lower two thirds vertically are more or less a flat down to the rod channel and that the top one third has a convex shape right up to a very thin barrel channel..  I submit that it has a very slight convex shape, but there is no extra wood there at all.  From the forward thimble the stock is reduced to accommodate the muzzle cap and here the stock is rounded.  Note the use of plain no figure maple.

[HighUintas]

The full stocked Hawkens were the 'economy' line so to speak. It's not at all odd for the breech and tang to be less refined and less featureless when you keep that in mind.

Yes! I didn't really apply that thought to the tang being straight instead of shaped, but I was thinking that about the breech shape and integral tang.

Some people say this shape of breech bolster is older than the one seen on the Bridger and Carson rifles. Others, who obviously are a wealth of knowledge on them, say you can't reliably date them by that. I would agree. I think that shape would be far easier to create than the one one Bridger's rifle.

[HighUintas]

Here is some more information:

John Brown's Autobiography. I think portions of this would likely be fairly interesting:  https://archive.org/details/autobiographyofp00brow/page/380/mode/1up?view=theater

Information on Brown's Hawken from his autobiography. This rifle saw a ton of action in it's life... it crossed the plains 13 times!

[Bob Roller]

Looks like a big bore SMR with a Hawken trigger guard to me.I like it.
Bob Roller

[LynnC]

Thanks for your insight Mr Sapergia. I know you have handled and built many a fine Hawken rifle in your time. Im collecting every bit of accurate info that I can so one day I may build a passible representation. Im always learning.

[RAT]

This rifle, along with the other rifle recently posted, have similar features and were probably made within 5 or 6 years of each other. This rifle has good documentation as being purchased in 1845, which is correct given it's features and being stamped "J. & S. Hawken". The other rifle being stamped "S. Hawken" makes it post 1849.

[Dphariss]

A little late to the party bout would LOVE to seen the cheekpiece on this rifle.

Dan

[smylee grouch]

The first thing I noticed is the trigger guard. It looks  like the scroll  is wider and maybe thinner.  also the grip rail looks shorter to me. This might be my bad eyes or camera angle. Notice too that the screw slots on the tang screws are not indexed for and aft.

[moseswhite]

I've only seen two full stock Hawken rifles that had hook breeches , one being the Kennett Hawken and the other one the Smithsonian Hawken., which both of them were more expensive fancy rifles with patch boxes. Those particular guards like on this rifle usually have a shorter grip rail , not uncommon at all . What a great rifle !!

[Habu]

A little late to the party bout would LOVE to seen the cheekpiece on this rifle.

Dan

A pic Notchy Bob posted on another forum:



Hey, it worked!

I got to handle the rifle about 30 years ago.  If the pic isn't clear, the bottom of the cheek piece face has a flat, not a slash or bead. 

[Eric Kettenburg]

Looking at this gun, and knowing that John Brown was traveling from TN, leads me to imagine (just speculation of course) that he carried a typical 1800-ish TN rifle probably of smaller bore with him to St Louis, and at that point, sold or traded it and told the Hawkens 'Make me something like this, but bigger and stronger!'  That's exactly what it looks like to me in almost every way.  Including the forearm shape.  I like it a lot!

[Habu]

Actually, Brown was traveling from Mississippi. . . he'd been away from Tennessee for some years by then. 

There's a somewhat-similar Hawken rifle in a private collection: longer barrel with smaller bore (.52-53 caliber), same general configuration on the stock, triggers are Kentucky style.  The rifle has a one-piece patent breech and appears to have always been percussion, but the lock is held by two screws.  No provenance known prior to 1867 or so (I don't recall the date). 

I've often wondered if this general pattern was the earliest configuration of the full-stock Hawken. 

[HighUintas]

I'd like to know if anyone has measurements on this rifle.

Habu, did you work at the museum or take part in placing this rifle in its current display? I'd like to be able to take some measurements since I'm so close and this rifle is a great one, but the display doesn't look like it will ever be opened for a commoner's request.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Actually, Brown was traveling from Mississippi. . . he'd been away from Tennessee for some years by then.

Party pooper!  I still like my imaginary story! 

[Hungry Horse]

 I’m pretty sure that Jim Clymans full stocked Hawken has an Adolphus Meier lock as well. But I think the lock differs from John Brown’s in that Clyman’s lock doesn’t drop down at the front lock bolt, but rather continues straight from the bolster and makes a square corner, before rounding down at the bottom. This lock is more often seen on higher grade rifles and shotguns.

Hungry Horse

[Habu]

I'd like to know if anyone has measurements on this rifle.

Habu, did you work at the museum or take part in placing this rifle in its current display? I'd like to be able to take some measurements since I'm so close and this rifle is a great one, but the display doesn't look like it will ever be opened for a commoner's request.

If I recall correctly, I was at the museum at the request of another researcher; he made the contacts/set up the visit/etc.  I wasn't there to see the rifle but a curator made mention of it and one thing led to another. . . .  I don't recall the exhibit the rifle was in at the time, or even if it was on display. 

If you have the time to do it, the easiest way to get access to an item in a museum collection is to volunteer as a docent or be a student in a museum conservation class.  Almost as easy is to be a researcher, and that means having a plan (what you are researching/hope to learn, how you will use what you learn, how you will share what you will learn).  Herb here has been very successful in getting access to Hawkens in western collections, and may be able to give you advice on approaches. 

[moseswhite]

Does anyone know the barrel length on the John Brown rifle ?