Author Topic: Compressed mainspring  (Read 7095 times)

Dave W

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Compressed mainspring
« on: October 22, 2009, 12:56:29 AM »
Are there any issues with leaving a mainspring compressed in a spring vice for a few days while cleaning up and polishing a lock?  I usually only leave mine compressed for no more than 2 or 3 days before reassemble the lock...

Dave

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2009, 03:06:56 AM »
No worries
Andover, Vermont

Offline Blackpowder Barbie

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 03:51:25 AM »
If you do that with a spring from one of our big English locks we will be delighted to sell you a new spring to replace the one that flew all over the shop in pieces.  You might get away with doing that with a Siler spring, but I can almost guarantee our English mainsprings will break if left compressed in a spring cramp (vice).  Also, ignore all those who advise applying the spring cramp while the lock is in full cock.  This is also a sure way to break one of our English springs.  The cramp should be applied while the cock is at rest and tightened just enough to allow removal of the spring.  As soon as the spring is removed from the lock release the pressure to almost nothing.
Barbie Chambers-Phillips

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 04:42:36 AM »
Yep, I bought myself a new big English spring a year ago or so. I used a machinist clamp instead of the right vise. Ping! Pieces all over the shop. Those springs are pretty fussy where they like to be held.
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Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 01:32:36 PM »
Barbie,   I appreciate your information, but what you said about removing the mainspring from your English locks, just doesn't seem right.   I have always removed all mainsprings by putting the lock on half cock. Place the mainspring vice in place. I do not compress the spring. I then release the sear and remove the spring.   I have four mainspring vices and often two or three of them will have springs compressed to this degree in them for days or weeks.  I have only ever had one spring break while in a vice, and I felt that it was defective.  I do not even remember if it was one of your springs.   I run through about a dozen of your locks every year and I have not encountered this problem. 
       The English locks are commonly used on fowling type guns and in the field those guns are carried on half cock for extended periods.   If the spring breaks from being compressed at half cock there is something wrong in the tempering process of those springs..
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 03:47:12 PM »
Well it makes for a good mainspring test. But I consider if bad shop practice.
I seldom leave one compressed for more than a few minutes and I generally do as Barbie says.
The the vice compresses the spring differently than the lock in normal use does.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Dave W

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2009, 06:52:17 PM »
Barbie,

This is indeed a Chambers Siler lock that I am currently cleaning up.  I follow your disassembly instructions verbatim but, just wanted to know what the common wisdom how long to keep the mainspring in a spring cramp.  Thansk for the info.

Dave

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2009, 06:57:04 PM »
No worries

The guy who said that (above) must be an idiot.  LOL!
Thanks for the new info, all.  I will adjust my practice with the newer model locks. ;)
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stophel

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2009, 07:06:31 PM »
What is supposed to be so different about the "English" springs that makes them unable to stand the prolonged strain?

When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Ken G

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2009, 07:13:25 PM »
I changed my method of operation a couple of years ago after a conversation with Jim.  I have had one break since then while in a mainspring vise.  I attribuate that to what Dan said about there being different presure than when in the lock.  Good advise all the way around
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2009, 07:33:05 PM »
Is the problem with the little spring vises that grip the spring more in the middle?  I have one of the big Davis ones, and it grips the spring near the front and rear ends.  But, I don't leave it compressed very long anyway.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2009, 08:13:16 PM »
Herr Stophel, this conversation makes me think a spring compressor for the 'big english', and the like, should replicate the way the spring is compressed in the lock.
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Offline Blackpowder Barbie

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2009, 08:25:51 PM »
You guys are correct about the pressure on the springs being different when in the lock vs. being compressed by the spring cramp.  The larger cramps that spread the pressure over most of the length of the spring are certainly better than the small ones.
Putting the lock at half cock and applying the cramp is certainly better than (as some recommend) applying the cramp at full cock.  But, our recommendation is still to apply the cramp with the lock at rest, and reduce the pressure of the cramp once the spring has been removed.
The English spring we make has been  engineered to give the maximum amount of power to the lock.  Basically, it is on the edge of strength vs durability for its size and shape in order to achieve maximum power.  We could back off on the power and have the spring be more durable, but overall lock performance would suffer if we did this.
Barbie Chambers-Phillips

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2009, 08:44:41 PM »
Are cast springs more fragile than forged? In a lock as big as the Roundfaced English, the original springs are forged. Same way of handling?

So many original jaegers are shown on half cock in museums, books, etc. The lock plates are engraved with the outline of the cock, even.  Whatz up wid dat?

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Offline Stophel

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2009, 08:46:44 PM »
They look good that way.   ;D

I have my only flintlock displayed at half cock...but I took out the mainspring.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2009, 09:01:25 PM »
my only flintlock displayed at half cock...

Where is the truth serum when we need it?
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Jim Chambers

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2009, 11:28:55 PM »
I have seen just as many broken forged springs  as I have seen cast ones.  If the heat treating is good on either one there should be no problem in normal usage.  Having the lock at half cock does not seem to be any problem at all.  You could probably leave it at full cock without a problem.  The problem happens when that same spring is put in a different set of stresses by the spring cramp.  The forces applied to the spring by the cramp are different from those applied to it in the lock.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2009, 01:51:24 AM »
I have seen just as many broken forged springs  as I have seen cast ones.  If the heat treating is good on either one there should be no problem in normal usage.  Having the lock at half cock does not seem to be any problem at all.  You could probably leave it at full cock without a problem.  The problem happens when that same spring is put in a different set of stresses by the spring cramp.  The forces applied to the spring by the cramp are different from those applied to it in the lock.
I'll assume then we should place the spring clamp as close to the hook as possible rather than close to the 'bend ???

Offline davec2

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Re: Compressed mainspring
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 07:19:55 AM »
For what it's worth...

Back on the old board, we had a discussion at one point about cast parts vs forged parts (or wrought material parts).  Cast materials, as they come from the mold, almost never exhibit wrought material properties.  They are always weaker due to inclusions and voids in the cast material that cannot be avoided.  However, a casting can be HIPed - hot isostatic pressed.  The following is what I wrote in my post on the old board:

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In my aerospace world, casting are not often used because we need the much better wrought material properties.  However, we do make many more parts now by casting and get much better material mechanical properties by subjecting the castings to hot isostatic pressing (or Hipping, for short).  The process involves putting castings in a cold furnace and then pressurizing it up to 2,500 psi or so with Argon.  Then the furnace is heated to within a few degrees of the melting temperature of the castings.  By the time the furnace is up to temp, the pressure is up to over 15,000 psi.  While this process cannot repair an inclusion (i.e. mold sand, etc.) in the casting, it does close all the voids and results in a casting that is very nearly as strong as a forging.  Pine Tree Castings (a subsidiary of Ruger) hips all (or most) the castings they make for Ruger firearms.  The process is fairly inexpensive if parts are run in large lots or piggy back with a similar material.  I have always thought that Hipping might greatly improve the quality of cast lock springs without adding too much cost.

You can also make up very unusual material combinations with this process.  A friend of mine got a piece of 1 inch diameter 304 stainless steel tubing and TIG welded a cap on one end.  He filled it with powdered stainless steel, powdered nickle, and 0.125 440C ball bearings and then welded another cap on the open end to seal it up.  He had it Hipped and when it came out of the furnace it looked like a twisted piece of stainless steel rope.  Inside, all the powder and ball bearings were fused into a solid mass of metal.  He forged it out and made a knife out of it and etched it.  It had the most unusual pattern you ever saw.

Here is a link to a company that does this type of work

http://hip.bodycote.com/?OB=112&POB=266&ID=35

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While the throughput for lock castings is undoubtedly very low compared to what Ruger puts out, I believe there are companies that will add a batch of parts to one of their hipping furnace runs for a reasonable fee.  Every time I buy a lock, I buy a spare main spring and a spare frizzen spring (no matter who I get the lock from).  I have never regretted the added expense as more than a few cast springs have broken in normal use.  It would be interesting to test a batch of cast springs against a batch of the same cast springs that have been hipped (both material properties and repetitive flex testing).
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