Author Topic: Paper shot cups working most of the time  (Read 704 times)

Offline Tim Ault

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Paper shot cups working most of the time
« on: June 01, 2022, 06:50:23 PM »
So Iíve gotten around to shooting my little 24 ga . .015 patch and .562 ball are working great but Iíve had mixed results using shot . Iíve been experimenting with paper shot cups made from brown grocery bags . Wrapped 1.5x around a dowel and glue with kids paste glue fold the bottom inwards and flatten .  Im using 1-1/8 oz of a mix of 7.5 and 5 shot as itís all I have at the moment . I fill the cup and then twist the end till I load it then rip the twist off flush with the shot column and top with a thin wad  I also rub a smear of mink oil on the cup before I load , using 2 thin wads over powder and 65 gr of 2 F . Iíve shot maybe 15 of these and had 4 not open up at all . Decent pattern at 25 yds on the ones that do .  So why arenít all of them opening ? Any thoughts or advice

Offline Daryl

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2022, 08:29:49 PM »
Ramming pressure?  If you "throw" the rod onto the shot "Ctg" after seating it on the powder, you will likely disrupt it to the extent that is splits.  Making the tube slightly
smaller than you are currently making them might also help with the "splitting/opening" when seating.  Appears your glue line only opens roughly 2 out of 3 shots. 
Have you tried the sky-chief load?
I would try lighter weight, less tough paper as well.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline DanL

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2022, 12:52:02 AM »
I have used sticky notes trimmed to the correct size for just shy of 2 wraps around a dowel (sanded to correct diameter) and utilizing the sticky part to seal or keep the shape instead of glue. The paper is wrapped around the dowel then a bit of excess length is folded over on the bottom end. It is then filled with shot. Build the shot column at the muzzle by inserting a hard card or stiff wad a couple of inches in then the shot cup topped by an overshot card. The whole group is rammed down to sit on the powder charge.

One can also build the column using the Skychief method and include the shot cup. The skychief method does improve the pattern in my .62 smoothie.

Experiment and give it a try!  Good luck.

From God's Farm in Alabama; God bless America & "Alba gu Brath !!"

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2022, 12:55:37 AM »
Jug choke it.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2022, 01:00:09 AM »
Trial and error - or have it choked, yes, Mike's solution will work and better than any combination you might manage in a cylinder bore.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Brokennock

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2022, 05:24:59 AM »
I don't glue mine. Because I am mostly using mine for a more convenient reload, instead of messing with loose shot in the field, I make several at a time and stuff a small metal tin with them. I usually don't need anything to hold them together. But, when I do, I just tear off a tiny piece of masking tape and use that.
Also, I twist the end before removing from the mandrel/dowel and fold the flat end closed after I fill with shot.

Offline Sparkitoff

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2022, 02:13:14 PM »
Why do you need the paper at all? In my 24b I usually use a 7/8 oz scoop for shot and powder. Over powder  card (2) and thin over shot card (1). Patterns are great for what Iím doing. When wanting a little more range. I load one ounce and a olive oil soaked fiber wad over the shot and the pattern gains me 10 yards. Seems the paper is unreliable anyway, I wonder what purpose it serves that canít be accomplished some other way.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2022, 03:52:02 PM »
I tried shot cups in my 20ga cylinder bore, every material and design I could think of, it they opened up the pattern was devastating at 25 yards, like a swarm of bees. Unfortunately they slugged at all the wrong times, like when I took a 15yard shot at a turkeys head.  I finally abandoned them and had my gun jug choked.

I had two identical 12 ga barrel jug choked by Caywood, one came back as a 40 yard gun, amazing, one came back like a modified, both were supposed to be extra full. 

I was disappointed in the the barrel that wasn't much better than cylinder bore until I put a Skychief load in it, that is what the barrel liked.

25 yards with the lesser barrel, I can live with this.

 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2022, 07:15:58 PM »
Nice pattern Erik.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online martin9

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2022, 07:24:13 PM »
Who is the preferred person to send a barrel to to get it jug choked? I've got a nice, light Rice 20 barrel I'd like to have jug choked.

Offline Tim Ault

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2022, 08:03:31 PM »
Why do you need the paper at all? In my 24b I usually use a 7/8 oz scoop for shot and powder. Over powder  card (2) and thin over shot card (1). Patterns are great for what Iím doing. When wanting a little more range. I load one ounce and a olive oil soaked fiber wad over the shot and the pattern gains me 10 yards. Seems the paper is unreliable anyway, I wonder what purpose it serves that canít be accomplished some other way.

The reason I tried it was because I was getting leading deposits in the bore . I wasnít sure if that was normal or not so just went with the paper cup , no leading with it but mixed results .   Iím gonna play around with a lighter paper and little if any glue and see what happens .

Offline DanL

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2022, 11:49:44 PM »
Tim, Try different paper types and different thicknesses. Paper cups work for some situations and not for others like most muzzleloading stuff. I have a non-choked .62 smoothie and compared to no shot cups, it gives a much better pattern and for longer distances with the above mentioned sticky note paper cups (gaining 7-10 yards consistently over no cup).

I was fortunate almost 20 years ago to have Mr. Lowell Tennison (sp?) jug choke another .62 smoothie barrel for me. At the time he was the GO-TO guy for jug choking. If this is what one wants, I believe there are currently folks on this forum that perform excellent Jug chokes. I asked Mr. Tennison to jug choke the barrel to "Super Full" for squirrels and Turkeys. I have 100'-120' tall mature oaks, hickories and other hardwoods on my property where I need the extra tight pattern to reach topped out squirrels. This Tennison jug choke outperforms my modern stuff with lead shot (Chilled or magnum lead shot). I will shoot at and kill squirrels at 50+ yards.

All that said, working up paper shot cup combinations in the non-choked barrel allows me to keep tight patterns for medium+ range (25-35 yds) squirrels and turkeys. The paper shot cups do need to split and/or burst upon powder ignition but they hold together long enough to protect the shot and the bore from any leading. One has to work up the best shot cup loads for your barrel/gun (paper type, thickness, wrap count and lube/no lube) just like any other shooting combination. It may or may not work for you.

If one is to stay completely traditional, one might want to avoid the shot cups or anything non-traditional. I like flintlocks and blackpowder shooting but do not limit myself to completely traditional components. Do what works for you and your traditional/non-traditional conscience. I have taken most all game in my area with traditional muzzleloading and other primitive weapons. I use my methods now to keep this decrepit body out hunting and enjoying the sport. 

Above all, enjoy what you are doing!

Respectfully,
Dan


« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 11:53:45 PM by DanL »
From God's Farm in Alabama; God bless America & "Alba gu Brath !!"

Offline Brokennock

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2022, 04:26:10 AM »
I mostly stick with my pre-made paper shot cup/cartridges for ease of reloading.
If you don't mind measuring and pouring shot in the field but still want something between lead and barrel steel you can form a cup at time of loading using a short dowel and strips of paper or patch material, precut for length and width.
Pour powder, place any wadding or cards just inside the muzzle, lay the strip of paper or cloth across the muzzle (centered) and push it in with the dowel so it forms a cup around the dowel as it enters the barrel. I stop just short of the edges being in the muzzle. Remove dowel and add shot, push in a little further and add and overshot card. Now push the whole thing down to the powder, these open reliably and protect the bore from leading. (Much easier to do than to write out)
Sime experimentation will be needed to get the right dimensions so that the width allows just a slight overlap along the edges lengthwise. I cut mine to length for the larger of my two most common shot charges and trim at the muzzle if using less shot.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2022, 04:50:32 AM »
I have had decent results using modern plastic wads, if I put one or two 1/8" hard card wads on the powder, to keep the flame from melting the plastic.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Tim Ault

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2022, 02:47:05 AM »
Thanks all going to do some more shooting with different paper and see whatís what . Going to have to Oder some shot thing Iím gonna go with #5 for tree rats and turkey , is it worth going with copper plated shot for just the regular magnum hard shot ?

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2022, 03:53:02 AM »
 Shot guns and fowlers, are not just a rifle thats had the wrinkles iron out of the barrel. There are an entirely different animal. It takes a lot of time and experimentation to really make one work right. I donít remember more than a couple that performed to perfection with the same load. Oh yea, you can cheat and jug choke it, But that doesnít always work either. If your not willing to do the fiddly work, and spend the time, you should trade it off for a boomerang.

 Hungry Horse

Offline Brokennock

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2022, 05:20:52 PM »
Thanks all going to do some more shooting with different paper and see whatís what . Going to have to Oder some shot thing Iím gonna go with #5 for tree rats and turkey , is it worth going with copper plated shot for just the regular magnum hard shot ?
I like #5 for turkey, squirrels, and pheasant. Larger shot carrying more energy, may mean less shot so tougher to get a dense pattern. But, it also means less and easier to find shot in the game.

Not sure on the copper plated. I have some copper plated #6 I don't really use it as I prefer #5. With the high prices and lack of availability of shooting supplies these days, I'd go with whichever you can get and afford.

One question I would have for the guys with heads full of trivia knowledge, is the weight/mass the same between a plated pellet and a regular lead pellet of a given shot size?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Paper shot cups working most of the time
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2022, 06:29:16 PM »
I have always used chilled 4s for any hunting situations.  10 bore down to 28 bore. Winged things and furry things. I found 4s to usually pattern better than anything smaller
 Copper or nickel platted gives slightly tighter patterns. I have generally used a dedicated shotgun that I don't also shoot round ball out of so I don't have to worry so much about getting the lead out.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?