Author Topic: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned  (Read 2000 times)

Online bama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
    • Calvary Longrifles
Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« on: June 11, 2022, 01:06:25 AM »
Here is a little Bedford rifle that is unsigned but has similar design features. I am posting pictures of it to see what the forum thinks. Enjoy the pictures.   



























Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2022, 02:01:16 AM »
Jim, just a guesstimate on my part, but your gun appears to have been made by one of the Stoudenmires. There were two and both were
J. Stoudenmire. Someone here will recall their correct names. A wonderful rifle; thank you for showing it.
Dick

Offline jdm

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2022, 02:15:27 AM »
Dick, I'm thinking along your lines.  Maybe Stoudenour or Joseph  Mills . These might be a place to start looking.  I'm lacking a lot of knowledge on Bedford guns.  You might check out Dietle"s website. 

The architecture makes me think the maker moved to Bedford from another area  Maryland ?    Ohio ?  Whoever he was he sure knew what he was doing.  Thanks for posting it Jim.   
Jim
« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 02:28:24 AM by jdm »
JIM

Offline onthehillbill

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2022, 03:42:50 AM »
Jim,
after looking it in VA and comparing, I believe that is a William Defibaugh made rifle. IMO

either way a very nice piece


Offline Rajin cajun

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
  • Ragin Cajun
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2022, 03:54:04 AM »
Bama, that jewel has got all the bells and whistles that a great Bedford should have. It’s just a great example of what a quality Bedford rifle should be.
Congratulations , that my friend is a keeper..!

Bob
It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog !

Offline jdm

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2022, 04:34:10 AM »
Jim,  Do you think this is an original  flint gun.  I think flint Bedfords are a little on the scarce side. I can't quite tell from the pics.  For a Bedford gun that would make it a some what earlier gun/ maker.  Just a thought.   Jim
JIM

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17988
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2022, 02:40:50 PM »
 In the "The Bedford County Rifles and Its Makers" there are 4 example with what looks like the same PB, cheek inlay engraving and side plate. Similar other than being percussion guns and they all have a curved front trigger. They attributed to Willian DeFbaugh.

   Tim C.
 
 

Offline louieparker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 831
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2022, 04:51:17 PM »
JDM... The wood being burned out a bit in front of the lock would indicate a conversion.  It's a fine-looking gun.  LP

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4202
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2022, 06:27:54 PM »
That's a fine rifle for sure, and has all the details a good Bedford should have!
And I agree with Louie, with burn in front of the lock, and the wood replacement above the lock, I don't think the flint works was ever part of the original equipment.
It's a nice gun and worth the 'fix'.
John
John Robbins

Offline Dietle

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Pennsyltucky native
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2022, 07:43:42 PM »
Did anyone aside from John Amos use that engraving style on the patch box lid and lock bolt plate, especially the way the center of the engraving is shaped? The relief carving design rearward of the cheek piece was used by Amos as well.

Offline Dietle

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Pennsyltucky native
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2022, 07:58:11 PM »
FWIW, the eagle engraving on the cheekpiece inlay is an extremely close copy of one attributed to Jacob Stoudenour on page 36 of "Gunsmiths of Bedford, Somerset and Fulton Counties". I'm not sure how to reconcile that fact with the patch box door engraving that I haven't been able to find on anything but John Amos rifles so far.

Offline Dietle

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Pennsyltucky native
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2022, 09:00:20 PM »
Well, this rifle is enough to make one's head spin. The carving behind the cheek piece could easily be William Defibaugh or John Amos. The eagle cheekpiece inlay engraving is a NEARLY PERFECT match to one attributed to Jacob Stoudenour, down to very tiny details, but I so far, I haven't found a picture of the rifle that inlay is mounted on, to try to determine how the attribution was made: i.e., was it on a signed rifle or is it just an attribution or even a mistake? The patch box lid engraving is something I can only find on John Amos rifles. The William Defibaugh patch box lid engraving looks similar at first glance, but the main swoops CROSS in the middle of the lid to form a shield-like shape, whereas on the John Amos patch box lids, the main swoops merely converge toward each other near the center of the lid, but DO NOT CROSS.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 10:44:26 PM by Dietle »

Offline jdm

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2022, 09:03:56 PM »
Ithink you guys are correct about the lock.  I couldn't see very well on the cell phone.  That's my excuse. I believe one of the Border family was a son in law of John Amos.  Daniel ? I will take a look when I get back. Jim
« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 10:17:14 PM by jdm »
JIM

Offline Dietle

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Pennsyltucky native
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2022, 11:19:22 PM »
Does the lock plate have a local boss for the frizzen spring retention screw? It looks like it does in one of the photographs. By boss, I mean a local area that projects downward from the generally straight lower edge of the lock plate, in order to provide enough local material to prevent the internal screw threads in the lock plate from breaking out from the lower edge of the lock plate.

Offline onthehillbill

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2022, 01:21:24 AM »
Lannie,
it does have the local boss, but that doesn't always mean it was flint from the beginning.  though it does add to the possibility it was.  I have examples of such lock plates but do not believe they were every flint.  I believe that the Bedford gunsmiths and probably others would make a lot of hardware pieces at a time and have a stock of them ready for when they started into making rifles.  IMO

Online bama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
    • Calvary Longrifles
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2022, 01:26:07 AM »
JDM, I did the restoration on this rifle a number of years ago. The owner at that time wanted it to be a flint gun. I used a modern lock and modified it to match the mortise. I do believe that it was probably a percussion gun originally. There has been a good bit of restoration on this rifle, all well done and not all by me. The heart of the rifle is still original and even though restored it’s still a great rifle. It
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline onthehillbill

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2022, 01:30:04 AM »
JDM
John Amos married William Border's sister, Rebecca.  Dan was one of William's sons.

Offline jdm

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2022, 01:52:04 AM »
Thanks  onthehillbill.   

 Bama, I sent you a PM before I saw these posts.  Just hit delite.    Jim
JIM

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2022, 02:20:56 AM »
A surprising number of the earlier Bedford rifles may have been made in flint. A number of them have flint plates and the cock cutout in the stock. My best one is an original flint by J. Stoudenour which is nice I guess, but isn't part of the fun of a Bedford the sleek lines and the crazy percussion hammer? Jim, do you still have the hammer you took off of this one? If it is of the classic 'crazy' style, you might want to take the gun back to percussion. Just a thought. Still, a grand gun and fun to see.
Dick

Offline Mule Brain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
  • Summerville, SC
    • Charles Towne Long Rifles Black Powder Club
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2022, 03:21:28 AM »
Thanks for sharing all those pics of a beautiful rifle. I just ordered the rest of the parts yesterday for my Bedford build.

 
Those Without Arms Cannot Defend Freedom

South Carolina's Oldest Black Powder Club

https://charlestownelongrifles.com/

Craig B

  • Guest
Re: Bedford rifle
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2022, 08:49:28 PM »
I have what I've been told is a Bedford County Rifle made by a Jacob Fry. It's was passed to me when my father passed away in 2006. It's been in the family for 3 or 4 generations.
Looking for information about it and approximate value.
Any assistance would be invaluable.




























































Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19343
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2022, 09:44:12 PM »
Beautiful rifle.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2022, 10:52:34 PM »
Looks a lot like a Snider. He used a lot of fancy well engraved inlays like this gun has. Beautiful rifle; thank you for letting us see it.
Dick

Offline Dobyns

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Re: Bedford rifle similar to JDM’s rifle but unsigned
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2022, 12:53:10 AM »
Looks a lot like a Snider. He used a lot of fancy well engraved inlays like this gun has. Beautiful rifle; thank you for letting us see it.
Dick

That particular rifle is pictured in the TOTW 2001 Gunsmiths of Bedford, Fulton, Huntingdon, & Somerset Counties.  Page 142, Tobias Snider