Is (was) this an "Old Kentucky long rifle?" **PIC HEAVY**

[jjjxlr8]

I'm trying to find out some basic information on some old guns that were recently discovered.  Someone on another forum suggested I post this here.

Here's the first one...

[nord]

Jjj...

The suggestion was mine as you'll find me here and at Antiqueguns on a regular basis. I thank you for posting here as we're always interested in long rifles. As to your other two firearms, I'm not sure we'll be able to answer your questions as they fall well outside our core of interest. These two would probably be better posted to AG as you now have some fairly good photos.

My observations about this rifle...

Obviously the condition is poor at best. Still, this is an interesting piece.
You didn't provide a full side shot of the rifle, so I can't guess whether the barrel has been shortened. The groove at the six o'clock position at least hint that the muzzle is unmolested.

The stock is walnut. This is somewhat less common than the maple stocks we generally see and usually associated with later rifles. More often found in NY rifles, though not at all uncommon elsewhere. Lack of triggers, lock, and trigger guard leaves much in question.

The general style of the rifle, the star, and the patchbox would seem to  suggest the lower Susquehanna region and somewhat westward. My problem with identifying the rifle as such is that by the time it was made the regional gunmakers had scattered to the four corners of the US.

One gun in particular stirs my memory. I would have sworn a PA gun, but it was made in Albany, NY... by men hired out of PA.  The same can be said about many guns made in the mid-west.  By the 1840's travel was fairly easy east of the Mississippi and makers moved with their clients.

I somewhat suspect that you'll find a Remington stamp hidden under the barrel. While this won't identify your rifle's maker, it might suggest that the gun was based on a PA design but possibly not made there.

Please visit our ALR Library & Museum. You'll begin to get a flavor for what I'm sharing.

[jjjxlr8]

Thank you very much for the information. 

I'll post them on AG this weekend and before I list them for sale, I will need to get some clear pictures of the entire rifle.  It's difficult because of it's substantial length!

[jwh1947]

I am in alignment with Nord's overview.  One thing I would add.  Here lies the remains of a decent late workingman's rifle which is a super candidate for a simple restoration.  Most of the gun is in better shape than most I've worked on. Minor work, mostly matching up, antiquing and fitting, and an acceptable lock job and you appear to be good to go.  JWH

[jjjxlr8]

What might something like this bring at auction?

[nord]

Jjj -

This really isn't the place where we discuss value. Dollars and cents are important, but history and preservation are our main goals. Further, I think it fair to say that nobody is really qualified to guess at a value without a hands-on inspection of the piece.

Please try to understand that this is not (was never) a high dollar gun. It was a minimally adorned utility rifle then and it's now a minimally adorned antique rifle.

Since the dollar value of long rifles has everything to do with condition and artistic merit, your rifle even in the best of condition would fall into a fairly low value range.

Please don't be insulted by this as insult is not my intention. What I'm saying is that $1000.00 spent on the restoration of a $1000.00 gun makes little sense. That same $1000.00 spent on a $30,000.00 rifle makes every sense. Yours is more the former.

[Steve Collward]

The style of patchbox and brass side escutcheon are also seen on rifles made by New York State gun makers.
(SC)

[jjjxlr8]

I understand and am not easily insulted.

These are not my rifles, I am just trying to find out some information for a relative who wants to sell a bunch of "old" guns.  She has half a dozen or so, most of which are in poor condition and are missing pieces.

I enjoy learning about relics like this, so I offered to help her out.

She has no interest in them and knows about as much as I do about them - next to nothing!

I really appreciate all of the posts so far and will enjoy lurking around this forum.  Lot's of great information and neat firearms!

[Tanselman]

As mentioned by Steve above, the patchbox is typical New York in outline, piercings and lack of engraving (altho some are engraved), as is the "anchor" shaped side plate. Put that with the walnut (non-maple) stock and the odds are high that you have the reminants of a good quality New York rifle made in the percussion era, probably ca. 1840. Shelby Gallien

[jwh1947]

Correct.  Everything is contingent on costs.  That being said, if the remainder of the cache of remnant guns are of at least this quality and condition, they would be a restorer/huckster's dream, if purchased as a lot, as is, and at an appropriate price.  Personal point: my criteria for taking the time on a piece is contingent upon the presence of an original patchbox.  I have a hard time dispensing of boxless rifles around here and have little interest in devoting effort on them.  Exceptions would be presence of absolutely attractive and impressive architecture and/or the evidence-based attribution to a grand master.  The pictured piece, after a proper restoration, might bring two grand around here on a good day, so the seller needs to understand that after parts, time, skill and travel are introduced into the business deal, he can expect to end up with less than 50 cents on a dollar, retail.  Just my take on things.

[jjjxlr8]

I know most don't like to talk about value in dollars, but what would an appropriate price be for this rifle? 

The owner is selling these rifles because she is in need of cash and I would like to help her get a fair price for it.

I understand that there is quite a bit of work (time, money, knowledge, etc.) that has to go into this one to restore it.

[keweenaw]

If it had a lock, trigger and trigger guard, it might be in the 1K range.  Lacking those, probably less than half that.

[jjjxlr8]

Thanks for the opinion.  At least it gives me an idea where to start the auction!  Hopefully it will end up in good hands...