Author Topic: Off hand shooting form question  (Read 1497 times)

Offline brokenhand

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Off hand shooting form question
« on: June 29, 2022, 10:14:35 PM »
Ok, here goes another question.  When shooting off hand, is it proper form to hold your right arm and elbow (right hand shooter), out at 90 degrees from your torso, or should you just let it reside where it is the most comfortable?  If you should make an effort to keep your arm up high, what is the purpose?

Offline MJBush

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2022, 10:48:03 PM »
In my humble opinion, YES. I think 110 degrees is even better. I also think the elbow up helps with making the shooter more stable.
Michael

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7629
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2022, 12:10:32 AM »
Years ago an old timer told me that the high elbow helps you to pull straight back on the trigger. I dont know if thats a fact or not but the old guy was a good shot and thats how he did it.  :-\

Online Yazel.xring

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
  • Ethan Yazel ILoveMuzzleloading.com
    • I Love Muzzleloading
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2022, 12:16:39 AM »
I’ve always been told if you stick your elbow out it’s a “chicken wing” and it should be tucked down?

I find it more comfortable to tuck my elbow down and into my torso but that’s just me
Hi, I’m Ethan and I Love Muzzleloading

ILoveMuzzleloading.com, independently reporting on muzzleloading and the people who have kept it going for generations.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14970
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2022, 02:27:22 AM »
Holding the wrist arm's elbow either out straight or tucked, changes the actual length of "your" pull when the shotgun butt of the rifle is tucked onto the pectoral muscle. This
is due to the hardening (or semi-hardening lol) of the pectoral muscle when the elbow is tucked, or slackening the pectoral when the elbow is raised. The difference can be upwards
of an inch- depending on that muscle, of course.
If the butt stock is hooked in the shoulder/arm-pit pivot location, the length of pull does not change very much.
Whether the elbow is raised or not, also effects the cheek weld, ie: pressure on the comb, dependent on the gun stock's shape, somewhat.
It's a matter of choice, I feel.  Whichever position you shoot more accurately with, should be the method chosen. EXPERIMENT!
When my shoulder's torn cartilage was very painful shooting my rifles, I found tucking my elbow down and increasing the muscle "thickness" helped absorb recoil from my shoulder.
I did that even when using the PAST shoulder protector as well as afterwards.  I actually feel more comfortable with the elbow raised only part way. That makes it easier on the right
hand wrist's angle. Again, stock design matters.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 02:31:37 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline brokenhand

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2022, 05:54:43 AM »
Thank you everyone for your replies and opinions.

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2022, 06:47:13 AM »
This reminds me of the Army... where there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way. Most modern shooters I meet are WAY too obsessed with form. I'm of the philosophy that we're all built differently... and each gun we shoot is shaped differently. Our shooting positions need to feel comfortable, and natural, without thinking too much about "proper" form. All that matters is that you can make accurate shots without feeling muscle fatigue and strain. If you do... change your form until you are comfortable.

Maybe I've come to this philosophy because I'm 5' 6" tall and my arms are so long I can touch my knees without bending at the waist. If you're over 6' tall and your hands hang at your belt line you're probably going to hold your rifle differently than me.

I also have a hard time drawing a pistol from a strong-side holster. Just too much arm length to allow me to clear the holster.
Bob

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14970
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2022, 07:30:22 AM »
Wow, Bob, interesting. I have a long torso and short legs with 32" inseam. Being 6'1" & 'taking' 34/35" sleeved shirts makes
my arms rather long, but still only reach mid-thigh, hanging down. Weird.  I fully understand about height, length of arms, body
and legs, as well as neck-length, another variable.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2022, 03:35:14 PM »
The particular rifle is also a factor...

Is the buttplate wide and flat or does it have a deep crescent? This will change how/where the butt contacts the body.

The length of pull and drop will affect how you hold the rifle.

The wrist length and angle... and the trigger guard grip rail. Is the grip rail/finger rest long or short? Does it stand far away from the wrist, or close in?

What about the barrel? Is it long or short? Large or small bore? How heavy is it? Where is the balance point?

Some modern "form" shooters say your support arm should be stretched out straight. Olympic style small bore shooters say the support arm should be close to the action with the elbow tucked into the stomach.

There is no "right" or "wrong" in this game.
Bob

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2254
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2022, 06:54:01 PM »
The general guideline is to avoid muscle tension or support.  Muscles get tired, then they shake.  Lifting your right elbow does nothing to support the rifle.  I do not see good service rifle shooters doing it.  I shoot MLs the same way I shoot service rifle.  So, I do not do it with ML's.


Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12524
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2022, 09:21:02 PM »
For me, raising the right elbow so my arm is parallel to the ground raises the rifle to my eye...I don't have to go searching for the sights and have a natural and restful cheek weld as a result.  I am right eyed, so I shoot off the right shoulder, but I'm left handed, so my strong side is on my left.  Consequently, I can support a 10 to 12 pound rifle with my left hand/arm completely unsupported by a body rest, for a considerable length of time before I start to tire.  This "advantage" has been beneficial to me for many years, shooting target lines and trail walks.  On another topic but still dealing with shooting form, a few years ago, I had a cataract repaired with a new glass lens in my right eye.  Now, for the first time in my 73 years, the target and both sights on my rifles are crystal clear and sharp.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline teakmtn

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2022, 10:31:18 PM »
Interesting, I just came back from the range shooting a new JJ Henry Early English Flint rifle. Off the bench the 5 shot groups were touching at 50 yards and 100 yards both. Off hand the groups at 50 yards were about 4 to 5 inches, but about 6" high. My off hand is usually pretty good. Reading this thread made me think about right arm position which I did not consider. While off the bench, my arm is horizontal due to constrained by the bench. When offhand my arm lies against my body in a more natural position. I need to get back to the range and experiment.
Doug T.

Offline AZshot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 622
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2022, 08:48:29 PM »
Generally, most new shooters are taught the way the GUNS are designed to be held.  Right arm at 90 degrees, forward arm at 180.  But some variance is ok for people that can make it work.  I was taught by my dad, a former Marine and expert rifle shot.  So my arm is always naturally out at 90 degrees.  I'm also an expert shot. 

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3646
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2022, 04:57:25 PM »
Brokenhand, a few thoughts come to mind.  I took a weekend class with the Marine Corps pistol team back 30 years ago, and took away some useful offhand tips for rifles or pistols.  Here are a few (these do not apply generally to fowlers):

Stare at the front sight.  When you can see the corners clearly, you are concentrating enough on the front sight. You cannot focus on three things at once, and the front sight is the key to see.  Young eyes can shift back and forth fast enough that it seems like one can focus on multiple planes, but eyes cannot once older. 

Accept the wobble.  Everyone wobbles offhand.  Accept it as the size your groups will be on that day.  If you try to "catch it going by", you'll yank the trigger and pull off target.  Rifles can hide this somewhat, but there is no hiding from trigger yanking with a flintlock pistol. 

To follow that up, press the trigger directly to the rear by increasing pressure.  The break should come as a surprise.  The desire is to release the sear without disturbing the sight picture.  I will say this is easier with a lighter trigger release. 

Ignore any shakes.  Like from too much coffee.  There are shooters who win matches with the shakes.  It saps your confidence, but does not hurt your group size.  Ignore the shakes. 

Don't lean back when shooting offhand.  Lean forward.  This steadies up the back, and allows you to ride with recoil. 

Now for some of my own thoughts:

Concentrate on hitting your target, not the flash or report.  I have been blessed to help some newcomers to muzzleloading.  I always start them on a big plastic bottle up close.  They are thinking about hitting the bottle and making it jump, not the pan flash.  Once a rifle/pistol is sighted in, I leave the bench and practice offhand.  I like clay birds on the berm at 50 yards as targets.  I don't always hit them, but I have fun and it makes for useful skills.  Starting a newcomer on paper (in my experience) makes them think about the flash and recoil, and develops a flinch. 

Glasses.  I went to CVS when my eyes started to fade at 40.  I bought an assortment of inexpensive reading glasses.  I have them in a baggie, and use whichever pair allows me to see the front sight best for a given gun.  I select the one that "just" allows me to see the front sight.  That allows for a less blurry target than a stronger-than-needed pair.    A trick for purchasing the right pair is to take a yardstick shopping with you.  Hold it at arms length, and tape a small sign to the yardstick at the same distance from your eye as the front sight (do this at home first).  At the store, try on different glasses until you get the right pair that allows you to see the small sign's lettering.  I also then buy one strength up and one strength down. 

The reason I love swamped barrels is that they seem to "hang there" offhand on-target all on their own.  I cannot explain it any other way. 

My last thought is to make sure you have a good, fast lock in your gun.  A touch hole of about 1/16".  From Pletch's high-speed photography test, I use 4f in the pan as it ignites faster than coarser grains.  NullB is a little faster, but it plates my pan and lock in graphite fouling.  I need all of the speed I can get to have the ball exit the muzzle FAST when I am shooting offhand.  Yes, 2f will set off a charge, but will be slower to ignite the charge by a fraction of a second.  That fraction may allow me to wobble off target before the ball leaves the muzzle.  I know, I know.  There are folks who will argue their gun does just fine with 2f in the pan.  I have not seen any of these folks say they have done scientific testing that says 2f is as fast as 4f in the pan.  Pletch did the testing.  I am just sharing the info.

I hope this is helpful to you in some way.  Not trying to stir up any animosity.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3646
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2022, 05:00:12 PM »
"On another topic but still dealing with shooting form, a few years ago, I had a cataract repaired with a new glass lens in my right eye.  Now, for the first time in my 73 years, the target and both sights on my rifles are crystal clear and sharp."

Just saw this Taylor.  Sounds fantastic. 

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9301
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2022, 11:44:55 PM »
Years ago an old timer told me that the high elbow helps you to pull straight back on the trigger. I dont know if thats a fact or not but the old guy was a good shot and thats how he did it.  :-\
Many of the guns used here have set triggers.No pull needed,only a touch.When I shot offhand I used the high arm method.
I am right handed with right dominant eye.Haven't shot for years with anything we discuss here.
Bob Roller

Offline Flint62Smoothie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: Off hand shooting form question
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2022, 03:23:07 AM »
When it comes to lock time, a single trigger is actually faster than a set trigger, detailed explanation in Frank de Hass’ book(s).
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !