Author Topic: Albright, Henry, Graeff, Dickert: rifles for William Irvine's battalion, 1776  (Read 2992 times)

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Interpreting the 'scribbles' as representative of Lancaster County renders this even more curious and interesting.

So they obtained the rifles from Zantzinger, and this document appears to essentially be an inventory noting who got which rifle.  I feel pretty comfortable, as you've mentioned, in assuming that the rifles noted with a specific maker's name were signed or stamped or otherwise marked by the maker, and this was noted on the inventory because it seems it would be the fastest and most positive means of identifying the rifle.

Now you have a group of 4 rifles simply noted as 'Reading' and a pair noted as Lancaster County.  Should we assume the pair from Lancaster were also marked?  This is where things get very speculative.  I can see a variety of ways this could go but unfortunately there are multiple explanations that make sense to me.  Scott you seem to favor the idea that in some way these were marked, and I would agree that it's a possibility, but what I can't wrap my head around is why, especially sans a maker's name.  I would assume these did not have a maker's name or signature, or otherwise the maker would be noted as per the other rifles.  So for me to view these as having been marked either "Reading" or "Lancaster" I would have to assume that the marking was done secondarily to the manufacture, unless the manufacture was part of some type of contract or grouping for a specific merchant or purpose.  I can't, however, figure out why a merchant or anyone would want a group of rifles simply marked with the place of manufacture.

I do think it's possible that a merchant someone with a contract to supply arms would see enough of them of various varieties and origin to perhaps recognize certain characteristics despite being unsigned.  Maybe not of every area or region, but maybe if enough of a particular area or two went through his hands, he could identify them by where they had originated.  As I mentioned previously, the earliest of the attributed 'Haga' rifles as George pictured in RCA are extremely distinctive.  If they are in fact 1760s or 1770s rifles, there is nothing else like them of that period (to my eye).  Maybe the two Lancaster rifles looked enough like a Dickert for Zantzinger to simply assume they were made by someone in Lancaster County even if unsigned?

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Offline VP

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Scott,
You are much better at reading this handwriting than me. Could you please tell me the names of two gunsmiths, the first being the rifle assigned to William Gibb that looks like L. Barr? The second one being the next to the last on the list where the gunsmith names starts with a M.

I agree with Eric last paragraph on identifying the Lancaster and Reading rifles. I think they are called Reading rifles due to the fact that they were hardly ever signed and were identifiable by their architecture as coming from Reading. I can make the same assumption for the Lancaster ones, unsigned but easily seen they were made in Lancaster.

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Online spgordon

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So for me to view these as having been marked either "Reading" or "Lancaster" I would have to assume that the marking was done secondarily to the manufacture, unless the manufacture was part of some type of contract or grouping for a specific merchant or purpose. 

Yes, exactly. Captains of companies routinely marked their rifles--usually with numbers--before they were distributed to the soldiers. I now have perhaps a half-dozen documented instances of this. As I've said before, it was a tracking system. This is why the cost of every rifle is recorded at the time of purchase, then copied into a list, etc.: in many cases, arms were taken from non-associators with the promise of return or reimbursement. (This is why the cost of the Baer/Oerter rifle was recorded in several places.) A decade after the revolution ended, both non-associators and the captains who paid for rifles were still requesting reimbursements for a rifle not returned, or damaged, or whatever. Some lists of rifles will have, added later, the word "returned" next to many of them.

There is no other reason imaginable to put the soldiers name next to some identifying mark on the rifle. Is there another reason, say, that one would correlate an "Albright" with "Alexander Stevenson"? I can't think of one. The purpose of creating this document needs to be the foundation for any interpretation of it.

An entirely different document, such as this one below, would list the amount that somebody (here, Captain John Feree) paid for a rifle and whom he purchased it from:



But--this is crucial--this is not what the main document I shared here is doing. The main document I shared here is tying a soldier to a rifle. So, sure, either these identifying marks were placed by the maker (saves work of adding the tracking info later) or they were added by the merchant (Zantzinger) or would be later by the captain.

VP: the identifying name next to William Gibbs is "Saml Barr." The identifying mark next to James Finnerty seems to be "Musser." Samuel Bare was a gunsmith in Manheim Township. Don't know about "Musser"--but it may be a scribbled "Messer[smith]": Jacob Messersmith was a Lancaster city gunsmith. I just know--or strongly believe--that the reason for recording this second column of names is to "track" which weapon was given to which man.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 04:19:47 AM by spgordon »
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Online spgordon

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Scott you seem to favor the idea that in some way these were marked, and I would agree that it's a possibility, but what I can't wrap my head around is why, especially sans a maker's name. 

How would you track which man got which rifle?

Either you use a numbering system (as Washington asked for in the 40 muskets he purchased from the gunsmith Palmer in Philadelphia) or you use some other identifying mark, such as a maker's name or the name of a county if the rifle didn't (already) have a maker's name. If there's nothing on the rifle ... something needs to be added (numbers or letters).

I honestly can't think of another way--or another way to understand what this document is all about.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 04:12:04 AM by spgordon »
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Scott you seem to favor the idea that in some way these were marked, and I would agree that it's a possibility, but what I can't wrap my head around is why, especially sans a maker's name. 

How would you track which man got which rifle?

Either you use a numbering system (as Washington asked for in the 40 muskets he purchased from the gunsmith Palmer in Philadelphia) or you use some other identifying mark, such as a maker's name or the name of a county if the rifle didn't (already) have a maker's name. If there's nothing on the rifle ... something needs to be added (numbers or letters).

I honestly can't think of another way--or another way to understand what this document is all about.

Yes, I get that.  But when I say "these" I am specifically referring to the rifles noted as "Reading" and the rifles noted as "Lanc Cy" (with the assumption that that is indeed shorthand for Lancaster County...  or 'City?  could Lancaster have been considered a city by 1776?).  What doesn't make sense to me is why *those specific markings* if the specific rifles in question were marked either 'Reading' or 'Lancaster.'  Why not "1" or "14" or "88" or something distinct to a particular rifle?  Marking 4 rifles with "Reading" without noting any other defining characteristic (like "Brass box") leaves you where you started, 4 unsigned rifles and now 4 unsigned rifles somehow marked 'Reading!'  I hope I'm explaining my thoughts properly.  I completely understand the concept of marking the pieces to ensure they're trackable.  I simply find marking a few of them - assumed unsigned otherwise - with the name of a town (potentially place of origin one would assume) and nothing else to be a bit perplexing in that on its face, such a generic marking would not seem (to me) to serve the intended purpose.
 
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Offline WESTbury

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Here is another Zangzinger document dated July 9, 1776 that is similar to the first Zangzinger document posted by Scott. The purchased rifles were for members of the militia unit that could not afford to buy their own.





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Online spgordon

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Marking 4 rifles with "Reading" without noting any other defining characteristic (like "Brass box") leaves you where you started, 4 unsigned rifles and now 4 unsigned rifles somehow marked 'Reading!'  I hope I'm explaining my thoughts properly.  I completely understand the concept of marking the pieces to ensure they're trackable.  I simply find marking a few of them - assumed unsigned otherwise - with the name of a town (potentially place of origin one would assume) and nothing else to be a bit perplexing in that on its face, such a generic marking would not seem (to me) to serve the intended purpose.

Well, I would think that marking the rifles "Reading"--since a value would be associated with these "Reading" rifles on a different document (the receipt from purchase)--would do the trick: it would ensure that Private Anderson didn't turn in a weapon valued less (a musket or a less valuable rifle). Marking the rifles of Ardenger, Girwin, Anderson, and Mullen won't distinguish these rifles from each other but would distinguish them from other arms that these four men might try to return.

Regarding the document that Kent shared: how much changes in three months! This is the same Zantzinger--but notice an important difference. Here, in July 1776, as Kent noted, Zantzinger is purchasing rifles for his own company. (These purchases included the Oerter rifle, which he took from Benjamin Baer: see bottom.) The earlier, April 1776 document that started this thread indicates that Zantzinger sold rifles to outfit somebody else’s company. As I mentioned, he sold at least 33 rifles to captains in Irvine's company in April 1776.

So this receipt exists to request payment: it is an invoice for the 18 rifles that Zantzinger purchased for his own company. The other document, with which this thread began, doesn't mention money at all. It exists to record who received each of the 16 rifles that Captain Rippey got from Zantzinger a few months earlier.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 01:14:38 PM by spgordon »
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Online spgordon

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Here is (both sides of a) document similar in function to the one that I originally shared (I think). It tracks which stand of arms (each numbered) has been given to each soldier; it notes that in some cases the stand is lacking an item ("Gun only"); and it marks one as "returned" (for reasons unknown!). If any of these muskets survived, we would find the "tracking" number on it.


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Offline JTR

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Some very interesting information here. Thanks!
John
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Offline backsplash75

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Fantastic stuff, thanks for sharing!

Offline marko

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Just wanted to point out that the 17th gun, assigned to Ensign Lusk, was not a “rifle,” it was a “Fuzzy,” (a fusil, I presume) and, in particular, a Fuzzy attributed to (what looks to me to be) “Sam Reading.”

Online spgordon

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I think that says “A Gun Reading”?—presumably marked “Reading.”
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Offline marko

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Scott, I lean toward your interpretation of “Gun Reading” (there’s no “A”), rather than my “Sam Reading” (a teaser, actually), based on the “G” in “Graeff, but I disagree with your earlier comment that the document, which I’ve included here, was authored by Zantzinger. I think it was authored by Ensign Lusk, Captain Rippey’s trusted second, assigned the task of obtaining and documenting the inventory and distribution. The text was clearly not authored by Capt. Rippey - his signature is in a different hand and ink/quill. Since the document (sideways writing) notes the arms were “Recv’d April 9, 1776 of Paul Zantzinger,…” it was likely not authored by Zantzinger, either.

So, here’s the scenario I envision: Lusk writes down a list of his riflemen (the left hand column appears to me to have been written down first - the writing is slightly different from the right hand column; maybe it’s the ink or quill, maybe the base under the paper or the time of day, the scribe being tired and sloppy in his handwriting). You can see that some of the letters are different, like the capital letters for “R” and “G.” Lusk lists himself last, which is what I would do if I were the author.

Lusk then meets with Zantzinger. Lusk does not know the gunsmiths in Lancaster by barrel mark, but Zantzinger, who is a Lancaster merchant, does. They start listing the rifles. First, Lusk: “well, that one has a brass box.” The next, Lusk, again: “that one looks new.” The third, Zantzinger: “this one’s from Reading.” The fourth, Zantzinger, again: “Albright made that one.” Fifth, Zantzinger: “Another from Reading.” Sixth and Seventh, Zantzinger, “These are from here in Lancaster, newly made, but not signed. I don’t know the maker.” Then, Zantzinger: “These are all by local guys, see, they’re signed, Graeff, Witter, Albright, Henry, Barr. Here’s another from Reading. A Dickert. Another Reading. Messer.” Then Zantzinger concludes: “And of course there’s your gun, a fusil I got from Reading.” Then Zantzinger says, “Oh, and that first one was made by a local guy, Fitter.” So Lusk adds “Fitter” next to “Brass box”

My point is, as you say, the listing of the gunsmiths is for identification, as is the place naming for the Reading rifles. I say this because I believe that neither Lusk nor Zantzinger could identify the makers of the “Reading” rifles either because they did not know the identifying marks or signatures, or because they were unsigned, as we know was the case with many, if not most, Reading rifles of that day. The two “Lancaster” rifles are noted as “new” for, perhaps, the same reason, ie., unsigned or mark not known to either Lusk or Zantzinger. One thing I doubt is that the “Reading” rifles were marked “Reading.”

As a relative newbie to flintlocks, I am not sure of the significance of the designation of Lusk’s “Fuzzy” as a gun instead of as a rifle or musket. I did notice, however, that none of the other documents refer to any of the weapons a “guns.” How would a fusil be classified back then? Rifle? Musket? Gun?

Mark



« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 01:51:18 AM by marko »

Online spgordon

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There is an "a" before the word "Gun."

I believe that the document is in Zantzinger's handwriting. It would be interesting to have a document in Lusk's hand (or Rippey's) to compare.

In receipts/accounts such as this at the time--whether about gun procurement or bricks or whatever--it is very common for the supplier to write the entire note, including the words that are in the "voice" of the purchaser/receiver ("received by me ....") and then the purchaser or receiver of the goods signs it. That's what I believe happened here.

I just don't know enough to have an opinion on whether the rifles were marked "Reading" or just identified as Reading rifles--identified as Reading either because there was a Reading "look" to them (I myself doubt this) or perhaps because Zantzinger knew where he had procured them from.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 10:32:52 PM by spgordon »
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Offline marko

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I searched and found an example of Zantzinger’s signature and handwriting. Looks to me like you are correct about the receipt being in his hand.

Did you have any opinion on whether a “Fuzzy” was a fusil and how fusils were characterized back then (or now)? Gun, rifle, musket?



Online spgordon

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A "Fuzzy" or "Fuzee" would be a "fusil" (French--and the final "l" is not pronounced). It wasn't a rifle. By this time I think it was often used interchangeably with "musket," but originally--if I understand correctly--"fusil" or "fuzee" was a flintlock and a musket (originally) was a matchlock. 

I've got dozens of receipts in Zantzinger's hand, which is pretty consistent. Here's another:



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