Engraver steel type for beginner

[HighUintas]

I'm considering getting a couple of gravers so I can start "practicing" or something, on scrap. Which also would include learning how to properly sharpen one.

What is the best type of graver for a beginner to buy? Carbon steel, HSS, carbide?

[Mike Brooks]

I like MOMAX carbide. HSS is fine too. Watch out for wide lines.....

[smoke and flames]

The type of graver you want to use would depend on the material you are going to be engraving. For brass and relatively mold steel a good drill rod type of metal is basic and very durable. Some of the more exotic alloys like Momax or ultra carbide can be brittle especially in the hands of a beginner. The other consideration is how you will be physically doing the engraving  Are you using hammer and chisel method, pushing by hand or using one of the power assisted tools
What I end up using most often is a carbide graver called glen steel from the GRS company. 

[HighUintas]

Thanks for the tips.

I'd be going with hammer and chisel style engraving and would be engraving mild steel furniture.

I thought I'd start with a large and small square graver and use the Lindsay sharpening system. I see that GRD carries hss gravers and I think MBS might have a couple too.

[smart dog]

Hi HU,
Go to the search function and type in "engraving" and limit the search to the gunbuilding forum. 

dave

[Jakob]

I've just made one of these:

[JTR]

Thanks for the tips.

I'd be going with hammer and chisel style engraving and would be engraving mild steel furniture.

I thought I'd start with a large and small square graver and use the Lindsay sharpening system. I see that GRD carries hss gravers and I think MBS might have a couple too.

That's a great way to go! The Lindsay system takes away all the issues with maintaining the correct graver angle, etc. Well worth the money!
John

[Kevin Houlihan]

  Glensteel gravers from GRS will work for most muzzleloading metals you're going to engrave.  They are carried by Rio Grande, Gesswein and others.  As JTR said, the Lindsey sharpening systems takes away the guess work in sharpening.  You'll also need a handle to hold your graver, which I think GRS sells.
Good Luck
Kevin

[M. E. Pering]

I buy cheap HF chisels and grind and hone them into engravers.  Just hammer graving so far.  It works, but it can be tedious.  However, I feel it does emulate the course and sometimes rough work of the old makers, and that is the result I want, or at least for now.

[T*O*F]

Here is a podcast by Wade Wilson, who is a FEGA master engraver.  It's specifically for beginners.


https://anchor.fm/wade-oliver-wilson

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'd also recommend the Lindsay system but the 'standard' parallel point (I think it's 116 degrees or somewhere in that range) is too wide for authentic work on American rifles save for some highlighting here or there.  I prefer the 70 or 80 degree points.

He also sells some stainless tool holders for 3/32 blanks specifically for hammer graving. They're expensive, @50 each, but REALLY nice and a perfect length with a great locking fit if you're using the 3/32 gravers.

[T*O*F]

I'd also recommend the Lindsay system but the 'standard' parallel point (I think it's 116 degrees or somewhere in that range) is too wide for authentic work on American rifles save for some highlighting here or there.  I prefer the 70 or 80 degree points.

He has the lesser angle graver templates available.  Somewhere on his site, he gives the angles of all his sharpening fixtures.  I also find the 70 degree works better for me.

[JTR]

Somewhere on his site, he gives the angles of all his sharpening fixtures.

Navigating that site can be a pain. Here's a link to the templets, etc.
https://www.airgraver.com/sharpening.htm

[kutter]

Carbide gravers you don't need for basic work. If you are working on extremely tough and hard to cut exotic steels as found in knives and some modern guns they are good. Or are trying to engrave thru case hardened surfaces for some reason (yes some people do), they will do that for you.
But generally anything on a M/Ldr won't demand a carbide graver.
If you do use them, you will need to upgrade to diamond hone sharpening equipment.
Regular oil stones won't touch 'em.

I have them and used then a lot when I needed to in the past. The certain mfg modern guns I was tasked with engraving wouldn't cut with anything else.
I don't cut those particular guns anymore and I don't use Carbide anymore either.

I buy 3/32" square lathe bits. Usually 3" long. They come in packets of 5 maybe. Been a while since I've had to buy any.
MoMax is excellent. Any HS tool bit steel will work fine for this.
There are plenty of Trade names for the different bits.
When I started we used to use Stellite and I still have some of that alloy. I think it has cobalt in it . Works as well as ever.
Makes good undercut punches for inlay work too.

You can use the 90* angle each corner gives you or make up your own.
A lot of people seem to want to use an even wider angle for some reason around 115/120*
That very wide, shallow plow cut chisel point leads to a lot of very wide lines inadvertently cut by many engravers because
 just a very little change in depth of the cut means a large change in the width of the line being cut.

If sharpened to a much narrower V included angle,,around 70*
A finer line over all is cut and changes in depth as you cut are not shown as big changes in line width.
You can still tilt the chisel to the side to flare the cut over when you want yo. That all comes with practice of course.

Another very easy chisel to learn basic engraving with that many do not try is the flat graver.
It is Very easy to learn to shape and sharpen/resharpen. Much more so than the V chisel.
In use either one of the side points is used the same as the center point on a V chisel.
Tip the flat graver up on one of the edges and it becomes a V chisel with a very wide flat on one side to cut the flare cuts.
Can be used either side.

I'd suggest steel handles. Long enough to comfortably grip of course. 6" is not too long.
5/16 or 3/8 square stock. Drill one end to accept the graver blank and secure with small set screw.
Grind/file that end to a taper so it doesn't interfere with your work
...or just buy the handle(s) from some place like 'N-Graver' for about $8 each.

Hammer?,,,plenty of 'Engravers Hammers' around. Extra lite weight to heavy weight's. Some use a bunch of different ones, some not.
I have a small engravers hammer I started with. The handle has been modified several times by me when I first started. Then after about 3 yrs I started using a 1oz Craftsman ballpeen hammer and never changed from that.

The small engravers hammer is still on the bench, along with a hand made heavier engravers hammer 'head' that I made knowing I wanted a heavier hammer. But neither gets used.
Craftsman to the rescue nearly 50yrs ago.

Wood, aluminum , plastic will work ok for handles. But steel will give you much better results as the hammer blow is transfered to the graver/to the work much better w/o vibration.
Vibration is what kills good engraving. Wether it be in the tool(s), the vise, the bench or everything combined.
Steel handles are not too heavy. You will not notice the hammer & chisel at all after you get acustomed to the work.

[HighUintas]

Thank you all for the great advice. There's much more here than I was asking for and it's very helpful, so thank you!

[Burg]

Where cay I buy 3/32" square lathe bits in HSS or some form of cobalt?

[Metalshaper]

look on Amazon, they have a wide selection of various HSS. I bought some 3or4 mm square and 6mm square in packs of 8 or 10 ( I think it was? )
one pack was 5" long the others were 8"

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[Mike Brooks]

Where cay I buy 3/32" square lathe bits in HSS or some form of cobalt?

Rio Grand. I used to get them at Brownell's too.

[RaiderSix]

What about a Crocker pattern sharpener? If I understand correctly, you can position the tool at any angle you want. I’m also new to graver tools.

[M. E. Pering]

I don't know why guys don't want to keep it simple when just starting.  Find and old needle file, and sharpen it to a shape.  Take a weighty object, and there is your hammer and graver.  Anneal the file, shape the file, harden the tool, temper the tool.  Then practice.
Don't spend a bunch of money until you have some experience.

[davec2]

I have posted this before but here it is again.....and I agree wholeheartedly with the keep it very simple to start......

I do at least 99% of all the engraving I do with two gravers....a 90 degree square and a flat.  Especially for a beginner, I would suggest that those two are all you need.  And the very most important thing to master first is how to sharpen those two types of gravers.  And then get a chasing hammer.  You can certainly use a small ball peen or whatever, but there is a reason the hammers used by engravers for centuries are small, light, with a large diameter face and a thin "whippy" handle.

A while back I posted the following.  The tools used by this 9 year old were very simple and, as you can see, he was doing a more than credible job of engraving.....and FAST !


In 1978 I was a junior officer aboard a Navy destroyer on a western Pacific deployment.  We had been in and out of the US Naval base at Subic Bay.  One day as I was on the pier, there was a small boy with a little portable work bench doing something for a sailor from another ship.  I walked over to see what was up and the lad was engraving brass belt buckles.  He asked me if I wanted a buckle.  I asked how long it would take... and he said about 20 minutes !  He had a small vice, a single square (obviously home made) graver, a sharpening stone, and a little hammer.  This is what he engraved for me…..in about 20 minutes.  He wanted $5……I gave him $20.  He smiled a lot.  I asked him how old he was.  He was 9.

[Jim Kibler]

Not sure if it has been suggested already, but I would recommend Glensteel blanks from GRS.  To me, these seem to have better toughness than typical HSS.

[Hungry Horse]

 I make my gravers out of old chainsaw files. Saw shops will often give them to you for free. Almost no professional engravers were found in gun shops back in the day. That goes for professional engraving tools as well.
 So why waste your money on tools and techniques that didn’t exist to any large degree?

 Hungry Horse

[kutter]

You can make your own graver,,lots of people do and do fine work with them.
Thats what you are doing when you make one from a lathe tool blank as well. It's just a piece of hard steel.
Use a file if you want.
A friend of mine uses slender stone carving chisel points. They are tapered so the hammer end is wider. The tip he takes down even further of course to make his graver point.
No extra handle,,just the tapered steel stone point chisel. Says he gets them from Italy.
Whatever works..

Wasting money on tools and techniques...
Buying lots of tools that you don't need would be a waste,,you only need a couple to complete most any job. One will actually do, That being a V chisel,,choose your favorite angle.
A liner or two may be useful on some patterns for accent and shading. I don't know if it shows up that often or at all on L/R's. Those Liner gravers would have been something the gunsmith/engraver of that time would have obtained commercially,,but they were common in the trade in Europe as were dozens of gravers in other sizes and shapes.

Techniques are either good or poor.
Your work quality will show which.

You can buy all sorts of specialty equipment but it won't make you into a good/great engraver.
Some of it will make things easier,,like the sharpening equip. That is one thing where many new engravers stumble,,sharpening/resharpening a graver.

Repeatable sharp point on the tool by simple hand held graver being sharpened against a stone. It's tough to do but not impossible. That's the way it was done.
When I started, that was the method.
A 'Crocker' could be used but they were slow to set up each time and the free hand method was encouraged.
Then the power equip came along with it's clamp fixtures to ensure angle repeatability.
Really does a nice job.

I got my power hone sharpener when I was forced to use carbide gravers that was in the later 90's. Diamond cutting plates were necessary to use with the carbide. Plain stones were useless.
I was 30yrs into engraving at that point and had only sharpened by freehand on a flat stone up to then.

For the simple work on a ML,,a hammer and chisel is fine.
Be proud of your work. Do the best that you can.
Don't fall back on the 'They all did crude work on those old guns' excuse.
They did the best that they could... and were proud of their work.

[Kevin Houlihan]

What about a Crocker pattern sharpener? .....

  I have a Crocker fixture.  I had to buy one for a class that I took and I haven't used it since.  The only thing we used it for was to grind the face angle - we put the heel on with a ceramic stone.  The instructor helped us get it set up initially and the angle was never moved after that.  The Crocker sharpener will hold the graver at about any angle you want.  The problem is that there are no angle markings on it and no definite way to return the fixture to a specific angle.  Save up a few dollars and get the Lindsey templates.  W/ the Lindsey system you almost can't make a mistake sharpening a graver.
Kevin