Author Topic: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles  (Read 4012 times)

Offline AZshot

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Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« on: July 12, 2022, 06:42:03 PM »
I've been thinking about the rear ring, closed or open, that seems ubiquitous on Southern Appalachian rifles.  I have not seen any explanation for it.  But it seems to have been used quite a bit by many Western NC and Eastern TN makers, for a generation or more.  I'm trying to determine if it was a stylistic feature, or had some purpose like to attach some item to the ring.  It just seems to be a lot of forging work if it was just a "style", and again, many gunsmiths did it, from Unicoi County TN down through Henderson County, NC.  That's a wide region back then.  Does anyone have any historical background on the ring? 



There seems to be an evolution to the ring, from earlier rifles that had a spur. 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2022, 09:34:19 PM »
cool factor.
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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2022, 11:20:23 PM »
For locking them into the arms room rack? For holding a candle?
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Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2022, 01:34:18 AM »
I had to look this up  ;D

u·biq·ui·tous

yo͞oˈbikwədəs

adjective
present, appearing, or found everywhere.
Dan

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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2022, 02:05:23 AM »
Mike nailed it!
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2022, 02:14:25 AM »
I always wondered about the why they made them that way and how the ring was forged.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2022, 02:18:12 AM »
I'm in the cool factor camp.  Showing off forging/metal working skills just like an over the comb tang or double base front sights. 
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Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2022, 02:55:33 AM »
I always figured that since the griprail and rear extension were welded there it was a handy location for some decoration.

Online rich pierce

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2022, 04:17:15 AM »
For locking them into the arms room rack? For holding a candle?
I can’t hold a candle to the forge welding those old boys did!  ;D
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Offline AZshot

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2022, 06:02:50 AM »
Since cool wasn't a factor on the frontier, before 1957 Chevy's and Elvis, I wondered if it was to attach a sling.  Or maybe to hold a bundle of wood matches.  Or a ribbon from your girls hair.  Or a scalp.  Or a ring of twine.  It's hard to say.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 05:27:36 AM by AZshot »

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2022, 07:05:00 AM »
Does anyone have any historical background on the ring?

That appears to be your gun, and if so, then you do. Is the inside of the ring polished glass smooth from decades of stuff dangling off of it at one time? I like to use the sniff test "is it something I would do today" for a lot of things, people back then were still people. So for me, that's an awful spot to mount a sling, and things dangling out of that ring would aggravate the heck out of me and make me look ridiculous. It is very cool looking though so I'm inclined to take Mike's side on this. Thank you for sharing.   

Offline ScottNE

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2022, 08:40:49 AM »
Since cool wasn't a factor on the frontier

Wasn’t it though? Even the poorest of the poor strove for, or at least dreamt of, something beyond the barest necessities of survival, back then just as today. There were hard times and hunger for sure, but not continuously in every single day or week in every hamlet. In times where immediate survival isn’t touch and go, people indulge their fancies to the extent that that can. If people thought that a ring looked cool, I tend to doubt that blacksmiths were in every instance so desperately close to starvation that they couldn’t take a few minutes to roll over the end of the handrail for the desired stylistic touch.

My opinion is bolstered by the lack of any obvious functional purpose for the ring.

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2022, 03:11:35 PM »
We see similar curls on many Blacksmith-forged items.  Just fancying it up a bit and possibly quicker than forging and filing out a finial.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2022, 04:03:18 PM »
I think some early gun maker started doing it on his rifles and other gun makers picked it up from him. Maybe because his customers liked the look.

Just like some makers used double bases (even triple) on their sights just to show off their skills.

My Gillespie family used forward curved trigger guards and sett triggers that were made a certain way to differentiate their rifles from other makers.

Dennis
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Offline bama

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2022, 05:12:37 PM »
It was probably just a show of forging skill. If you have ever tried to forge one of these guards you will know that the curl is not an easy thing to do and make it look right. The same thing with the over the comb tang, it is not easily done and done right. So it was a show of skill level.
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Offline jdm

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2022, 06:24:16 PM »
It was better than leaving a straight edge. Besides it is cool !
JIM

Offline RAT

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2022, 11:56:11 PM »
My long-held theory is that it's a cultural style associated with the Scots. By the 18th century Scottish firearms had developed into a unique style. This included iron frames or stocks on Scottish highland pistols. One identifying characteristics of these highland pistols was the rams head butt finials. Essentially 2 tight scrolls. The American south east, where the iron mounted Appalachian rifle was born, was settled primarily by people from this region of the British isles. Chiefly the Scots-Irish. The famous gunsmithing Bean family were Scots. I also believe this answers the long asked question about why iron mounted rifles are a southern thing not seen in the north. The use of iron mountings being common for Scottish immigrants, but brass mountings being more common for German and English immigrants.

Does anyone else see the similarity?








Bob

Offline AZshot

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2022, 12:41:40 AM »
This is a great conversation and I appreciate all suggestions.  I'm leaning towards it was just a stylistic feature that caught on, like the point on the back of some lockplates, or rounded in other regions.  But it was so often used, I thought perhaps form follows some function.  I didn't really think it was for a sling...you wouldn't want a 9 lb rifle hanging from a trigger guard held on with 2 small screws...

Offline RAT

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2022, 02:19:08 AM »
It's strictly a decorative feature. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I don't see how anyone could think it HAD to serve some practical function. Thinking everything has to have a function is a concept alien to me. Clearly, all of human existence through time proves this. What practical purpose is there to a cheekpiece inlay? Or, for that matter, an earring?
Bob

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2022, 02:25:31 AM »
Decorative only. There’s only a wood screw holding the rear extension of the trigger guard in place. Decorative and perhaps a regional statement. Probably much the latter.
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Offline AZshot

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2022, 05:14:18 AM »
It's strictly a decorative feature. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I don't see how anyone could think it HAD to serve some practical function. Thinking everything has to have a function is a concept alien to me. Clearly, all of human existence through time proves this. What practical purpose is there to a cheekpiece inlay? Or, for that matter, an earring?

Form often, but now always, follows function.  It's alien to me to think they made a buttstock with a length of pull just to look pretty.  Or a cheekpiece was just a place to put a decorative edge molding.  Hey, if that was they case, why not put a cheekpiece on BOTH sides of the stock?  Much of a long rifle was functional.  Some traditional.
 Some symbolic (Moravian Stars).  Some was decorative.  The ring probably was a confluence of several.  Or one guy did it, everyone knew his rifles were good, it became a trademark. The interesting thing is to determine which was which. 

Where did the ring design come from, who was first?  Bean?  Why not a S-curve like some of the Catawba County, NC stylistic details?  Why not s knob?  To me it's interesting to trace the origin of things, functional or stylistic.  And I appreciate thought and conversation about it.  Perhaps something is written about it.  There are many aspects of long rifles that are guesswork.  Like the "feather hole".  Someone has to make a hypothesis about if it was functional, or decorative.  I could just as easily make up a story about the hole, or ring, saying it warded off evil spirits, but I'd need documentation or I'd be blowing smoke.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 05:26:06 AM by AZshot »

Offline AZshot

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2022, 05:29:05 AM »
Since cool wasn't a factor on the frontier

Wasn’t it though? Even the poorest of the poor strove for, or at least dreamt of, something beyond the barest necessities of survival, back then just as today. There were hard times and hunger for sure, but not continuously in every single day or week in every hamlet. In times where immediate survival isn’t touch and go, people indulge their fancies to the extent that that can. If people thought that a ring looked cool, I tend to doubt that blacksmiths were in every instance so desperately close to starvation that they couldn’t take a few minutes to roll over the end of the handrail for the desired stylistic touch.

My opinion is bolstered by the lack of any obvious functional purpose for the ring.

Good points. Perhaps it was an evolution, after people with the old spurs complained that they would snag on things, or poke into things.  So some creative gunsmith rolled it into a ring, and the rest is history. 

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2022, 05:58:59 PM »
I take issue with the argument looking cool is not a functional purpose; looking cool is a function of selling the gun, something the builder needs to do if he wants to eat.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2022, 06:30:37 PM »
Hard to argue this point. 
looking cool is a function of selling the gun, something the builder needs to do if he wants to eat.
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Offline RAT

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Re: Purpose of rear ring on handrail of Appalachian rifles
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2022, 11:41:03 PM »
Scroll finials do serve a purpose and function. That function is in art & architecture. The purpose is to provide a decorative end to something. They have been used in metal arts for millennium. They were in use in iron work throughout Europe... and in bronze age work before that. But that doesn't explain why they became a characteristic of a particular type of firearm from only one region in North America.

Scroll finials were used in iron work by German immigrants in Pennsylvania, and by English immigrants in New England. But not on trigger guards in those regions. Why was it just the south? Who were the people migrating to the south in larger numbers? And why did iron mountings predominate in the south? When I look at the people, I see Scots and Scots-Irish. To me, that has to be the answer.

When we look to Pennsylvania, we see the similarity of the rifles produced there to those produced in Germany (and surrounding areas-like Switzerland). We see the German names of those who made these rifles. We conclude that the rifles from Pennsylvania evolved from those made in the German regions.

I'm not making the claim that the Bean family "invented" or single-handedly "developed" the iron mounted Appalachian rifle with scroll trigger guard. I only use them as an example of how Scottish immigrants in the south might be the answer to explain the unique style of rifles being produced there.

According to Jerry Noble in his book "Notes on Southern Long Rifles"...

"The Beans are descended from the McBain clan of Scotland." "We first find the Beans in Northumberland County Virginia. Old Wm. (William Bean) was born there in 1673, his brother, John, in 1682." "Many of their descendants were early settlers in Tennessee, Georgia, and the Carolinas."

The first white person born in what today is Tennessee was, in fact, a Bean.

He goes on to say...

"Wm. I (William Bean the 1st) was born in Northumberland County Virginia in 1721. He was in Halifax County by 1747, then on to Pittsylvania County in south central Virginia by the 1760's. He moved to what is now Tennessee in 1768 or 1769, being one of the first settlers there.Some sources say he was the first. He died there in 1782. Wm. I was a gunsmith and taught all his sons the trade, according to several sources."

If my memory is correct (I'm not betting money on it though) the earliest engraved date I can find on an iron mounted rifle with these Tennessee/Appalachian features is 1818. The Joseph Bogle rifle (also a Tennessee-made rifle) was made before his death in 1811. While that rifle doesn't have the scroll guard or Banana patchbox we typically associate with the school, it's still iron mounted and relative to the conversation. Joseph Bogle was also of Scottish descent. He was also related to the Beans by marriage.

William Ivey's book "North Carolina Schools of Longrifles 1765-1865" has a photo of an iron mounted rifle of the Bear Creek NC school attributed to gunmaker David Kennedy (1768-1837). It's not an Appalachian school rifle, but it is Iron Mounted. Another (brass mounted) rifle by David Kennedy has the engraved date 1807. According to Jerry Noble regarding the Kennedy's... "Early Kennedy's left Ireland in the 12th century for Scotland. They were in Pennsylvania before the revolution. Alexander (father of David) bought an interest in the gun shop of Wm, Williamson at Mechanics Hill, North Carolina shortly after the war and expanded it."

It is my belief that the iron-mounted Appalachian/Tennessee style rifle with scroll trigger guard and banana patchbox was fully developed by 1815. And I also believe it was developed by Scottish (and Scots-Irish) immigrants to the Appalachian region of the American south east.

Oh... and those feather holes between the trigger guard and toe plate that people have mentioned... take another look at that Highland pistol. The knob between the rams horn scrolls... that's a vent pick that screws into a hole. Maybe that's where the Southern "feather hole" evolved.

Bob