General discussion > Black Powder Shooting

Elk load, 58 cal, new guy questions

(1/9) > >>

schmidty3:
Hello Everyone,

I'm a 32 year old child thats looking to learn a thing or two, been lurking around here for years (like 12 years  :o). Finally got a .58 kibler kit finished up last fall to fulfil my mountain man fantasies. Im quite experienced with normal muzzleloaders but have never had a flintlock or hunted with roundballs. I'm also proficient at un-aliving cute cuddly tasty creatures with all methods. But this flintlock game is my next learning adventure. Especially the part where i make it go bang cleanly every time  :o

Currently going thru the familiarization process with my new toy and its going well. I'll probably find some other things to ask about in the future, but i'll start with hunting loads/sighting methodology.

I spent some time with it the other day. Probably shot around 15 times and had no misfires and everything touched off smoothly with no delays. Had a bit of a hangfire the night before on a coyote however. humidity and carrying it around got to me. Despite changing out the null B several times. Probably stick to 4f from now on.

I managed to draw a NM elk tag this fall and have my mind set on doing it with this .58.

On to the load....

My current load that im trying is 120gr of swiss 2f, 4f prime, mink oil, .018 patch(???? i dont remember, been awhile since ive bought them, got them from TOTW) and a hornady ball. It loads smoothly enough and i didnt have to swab the bore at all while shooting. It seems to shoot well enough that any discrepancies are probably me. (i did try an 100 gr load for deer last fall, my first time on the range with a flintlock, shot about ~3" group at 75 yards, good enough for me)

Attached is a pick of a patch. Would this be considered a blown patch? Accuracy seemed good, within a few inches of where i was aiming out to 110 yards. But i wasnt bench rested either. And like i said, the barrel didnt seem crudded while loading.

I've read that some people like to use a harder alloy on larger creatures. Would it be recommended to switch away from the hornady balls for elk before i dial in my sights further? Or is the hornady ball adequate (its definitely easier, i dont mind pouring  my own, ive got lead, but adding another variable to the accuracy equation seems unpreferable).


The target attached was mostly shot from a seated position resting on the top of my kifaru pack frame, but also a few standing shots were taken. 25-110 yards (stepped off, forgot my rangefinder). I started off up close at 25 aiming at the center of the box, hitting high and left. Scooted back, drifted the sight over and aimed at the bottom of the box. At 50-75 yards im hitting about 12-14" high. At 100-110 i was about 8" high (one of the circled bottom 2 shots, the other was a 25 yard freehand aiming at the bottom of the box). And i took a prone shot at ~150yds holding center the target which landed below the target (fairly expected but was curious).

Personally i kind of liked aiming at the bottom of the box versus trying to align the blade with the center of a box. With a recurve bow i would reference my arrow with the bottom of a deers chest. I find that aiming like that is less mentally stressful and i can focus more on shot execution. Im sure its something to do with having a hard thing (belly line) to aim at on an otherwise homogenous looking surface. I've only killed one elk previously, but if i hold bottom of the chest and the ball hits from 8-14" above that i should have a dead elk. this methodology may not work on a deer or bear, but im mainly focused on this being an elk gun at the moment, and am going to be pretty deliberate about taking a nice broadside shot.

approximate POI's at ranges:

25 yards: 8" high
50 yards: 12-14" high
75 yards: 12-14" high
100-110 yards: 8-10" high
150 yards: way low  :P

Any counter thoughts on my aiming philosophy? I'll be trying to get as close as possible of course. But if i can hit that ~18" box every time i should be eating well come winter.

D. Taylor Sapergia:
You will do what makes you the most comfortable, but I will offer my sighting/aiming method for the sake of conversation.

I file my sights so that I can aim and hit dead centre at ranges from 25 to 75 yards.  That is I put the tip of the front sight dead level with the notched top of the rear sight and in the centre of the target.  If my target is a thumb tack or a horizontal string, I don't want to guess at where to hold the sights.  This also gives me great results on moving/running shots where offhand is the only option.
For shots at game beyond 75 yards, I always look for a rest if I can find one, but often the offhand shot is all that presents itself.  So for hitting centre with sights filed in this manner, for 100 yards, here's the picture.  On all my rifles, I file a 45 degree bevel on the top rear corner of the silver blade such that when looking at it down the barrel, the bevel is a square.  The eye sees this as a round ball of light.  I simply place the shining ball on top of the level rear sight and on the spot I want to hit.  This gives me perfect elevation for 100 yards, using the load you are currently using.  For 125 yards I simply increase the amount of front sight blade above the rear sight until about half of it is exposed.  This can be done very quickly and consistently.  For 200 yards, I suggest raising the entire blade right down to the barrel above the rear sight plain and hold centre on the target with the tip of the front sight.  At our rifle range, we have an 18" steel plate hanging at 200 yards, and using this aiming technique, I can tag it almost every time, offhand.
Naturally, you will need to experiment if you choose to try this method, to gain confidence and proficiency, but I suggest you'll like it.
On a .62 cal. Hawken rifle I built, I had to use the reflection of the front sight on the barrel to get the big ball on the target at 200 yards, but always, the front sight is dead centre in the target.

Mike Brooks:
I'd switch to 3fff for main charge and prime.  Shoot what ever load is most accurate. I would consider 120 grains to be a lot of powder. But I don't hunt out west.  Personally  I wouldn't be shooting at anything beyond 75 yards these days as I can't see iron sights well anymore. Your gun is only as accurate as the sights will allow it to be. You'll have to figure out some soght picture to suit you
 I could never remember the one you're currently settled on.

schmidty3:

--- Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on July 12, 2022, 09:01:36 PM ---You will do what makes you the most comfortable, but I will offer my sighting/aiming method for the sake of conversation.

I file my sights so that I can aim and hit dead centre at ranges from 25 to 75 yards.  That is I put the tip of the front sight dead level with the notched top of the rear sight and in the centre of the target.  If my target is a thumb tack or a horizontal string, I don't want to guess at where to hold the sights.  This also gives me great results on moving/running shots where offhand is the only option.
For shots at game beyond 75 yards, I always look for a rest if I can find one, but often the offhand shot is all that presents itself.  So for hitting centre with sights filed in this manner, for 100 yards, here's the picture.  On all my rifles, I file a 45 degree bevel on the top rear corner of the silver blade such that when looking at it down the barrel, the bevel is a square.  The eye sees this as a round ball of light.  I simply place the shining ball on top of the level rear sight and on the spot I want to hit.  This gives me perfect elevation for 100 yards, using the load you are currently using.  For 125 yards I simply increase the amount of front sight blade above the rear sight until about half of it is exposed.  This can be done very quickly and consistently.  For 200 yards, I suggest raising the entire blade right down to the barrel above the rear sight plain and hold centre on the target with the tip of the front sight.  At our rifle range, we have an 18" steel plate hanging at 200 yards, and using this aiming technique, I can tag it almost every time, offhand.
Naturally, you will need to experiment if you choose to try this method, to gain confidence and proficiency, but I suggest you'll like it.
On a .62 cal. Hawken rifle I built, I had to use the reflection of the front sight on the barrel to get the big ball on the target at 200 yards, but always, the front sight is dead centre in the target.

--- End quote ---

Not gonna lie. You lost me a bit talking about balls of light. I think i understand the rest. My issue with holding dead center is that it obfuscates the point im trying to hit. In your thumb tack scenario, youre in a battle of ups and down and wiggling around to try to put that thumb tack on top of the front sight post, and when you think you have it then you cant see the thumbtack, so you lower the sight back, then bring it back up...etc etc.

My target is an elk and only an elk. Im placing the whole elk on top of the front sight post and it will be dead. If the shot gets out there too far then i can raise the sight to the center of the body or top of the back, but in reality ive got no business shooting past 120 yards or so.

schmidty3:

--- Quote from: Mike Brooks on July 12, 2022, 09:43:50 PM ---I'd switch to 3fff for main charge and prime.  Shoot what ever load is most accurate. I would consider 120 grains to be a lot of powder. But I don't hunt out west.  Personally  I wouldn't be shooting at anything beyond 75 yards these days as I can't see iron sights well anymore. Your gun is only as accurate as the sights will allow it to be. You'll have to figure out some soght picture to suit you
 I could never remember the one you're currently settled on.

--- End quote ---

Why 3f? Poking around it seems like the consensus is 2f is the way to go on bigger calibers.


The beauty is that there is nothing to remember. Put the elk on top of the front sight post and its dead from 0-120ish. Its a calibrated sight picture for a specific target. Obviously that doesnt work as soon as your target changes. Shooting a specific bullseye or even a small doe would be a challenge.

When i would set up my hunting recurve for elk i would find an arrow setup that let me hold the belly line with the arrow point as my *sight*. From 5-30 yards, as long as the arrow point is on the belly when i released the shot i'd have a dead elk. There no conscious thought needed on aiming other then "is it within 30 yards?".

Its essentially a self compensating sight picture that doesnt obscure the target. As the distance increases the angle between the point of aim and point of impact decreases, essentially compensating for trajectory. You also dont necessarily have to be able to see the sights that well. Use them as a form check to make sure you are properly aligned, then place them on the elks belly and worry about breaking the shot.

I dont necessarily need perfection here, the sight picture here is for placing a ball in a 3" wide by 8" tall rectangle every time and every distance.

The gun seems accurate enough. The problem is me and making sure i get a clean ignition. i also need to take about a pound off of the trigger. Its nice and crisp, but squeezing thru it to get the needed surprise break is a task.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page