Elk load, 58 cal, new guy questions

[schmidty3]

Hello Everyone,

I'm a 32 year old child thats looking to learn a thing or two, been lurking around here for years (like 12 years  ). Finally got a .58 kibler kit finished up last fall to fulfil my mountain man fantasies. Im quite experienced with normal muzzleloaders but have never had a flintlock or hunted with roundballs. I'm also proficient at un-aliving cute cuddly tasty creatures with all methods. But this flintlock game is my next learning adventure. Especially the part where i make it go bang cleanly every time 

Currently going thru the familiarization process with my new toy and its going well. I'll probably find some other things to ask about in the future, but i'll start with hunting loads/sighting methodology.

I spent some time with it the other day. Probably shot around 15 times and had no misfires and everything touched off smoothly with no delays. Had a bit of a hangfire the night before on a coyote however. humidity and carrying it around got to me. Despite changing out the null B several times. Probably stick to 4f from now on.

I managed to draw a NM elk tag this fall and have my mind set on doing it with this .58.

On to the load....

My current load that im trying is 120gr of swiss 2f, 4f prime, mink oil, .018 patch(? i dont remember, been awhile since ive bought them, got them from TOTW) and a hornady ball. It loads smoothly enough and i didnt have to swab the bore at all while shooting. It seems to shoot well enough that any discrepancies are probably me. (i did try an 100 gr load for deer last fall, my first time on the range with a flintlock, shot about ~3" group at 75 yards, good enough for me)

Attached is a pick of a patch. Would this be considered a blown patch? Accuracy seemed good, within a few inches of where i was aiming out to 110 yards. But i wasnt bench rested either. And like i said, the barrel didnt seem crudded while loading.

I've read that some people like to use a harder alloy on larger creatures. Would it be recommended to switch away from the hornady balls for elk before i dial in my sights further? Or is the hornady ball adequate (its definitely easier, i dont mind pouring  my own, ive got lead, but adding another variable to the accuracy equation seems unpreferable).


The target attached was mostly shot from a seated position resting on the top of my kifaru pack frame, but also a few standing shots were taken. 25-110 yards (stepped off, forgot my rangefinder). I started off up close at 25 aiming at the center of the box, hitting high and left. Scooted back, drifted the sight over and aimed at the bottom of the box. At 50-75 yards im hitting about 12-14" high. At 100-110 i was about 8" high (one of the circled bottom 2 shots, the other was a 25 yard freehand aiming at the bottom of the box). And i took a prone shot at ~150yds holding center the target which landed below the target (fairly expected but was curious).

Personally i kind of liked aiming at the bottom of the box versus trying to align the blade with the center of a box. With a recurve bow i would reference my arrow with the bottom of a deers chest. I find that aiming like that is less mentally stressful and i can focus more on shot execution. Im sure its something to do with having a hard thing (belly line) to aim at on an otherwise homogenous looking surface. I've only killed one elk previously, but if i hold bottom of the chest and the ball hits from 8-14" above that i should have a dead elk. this methodology may not work on a deer or bear, but im mainly focused on this being an elk gun at the moment, and am going to be pretty deliberate about taking a nice broadside shot.

approximate POI's at ranges:

25 yards: 8" high
50 yards: 12-14" high
75 yards: 12-14" high
100-110 yards: 8-10" high
150 yards: way low 

Any counter thoughts on my aiming philosophy? I'll be trying to get as close as possible of course. But if i can hit that ~18" box every time i should be eating well come winter.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You will do what makes you the most comfortable, but I will offer my sighting/aiming method for the sake of conversation.

I file my sights so that I can aim and hit dead centre at ranges from 25 to 75 yards.  That is I put the tip of the front sight dead level with the notched top of the rear sight and in the centre of the target.  If my target is a thumb tack or a horizontal string, I don't want to guess at where to hold the sights.  This also gives me great results on moving/running shots where offhand is the only option.
For shots at game beyond 75 yards, I always look for a rest if I can find one, but often the offhand shot is all that presents itself.  So for hitting centre with sights filed in this manner, for 100 yards, here's the picture.  On all my rifles, I file a 45 degree bevel on the top rear corner of the silver blade such that when looking at it down the barrel, the bevel is a square.  The eye sees this as a round ball of light.  I simply place the shining ball on top of the level rear sight and on the spot I want to hit.  This gives me perfect elevation for 100 yards, using the load you are currently using.  For 125 yards I simply increase the amount of front sight blade above the rear sight until about half of it is exposed.  This can be done very quickly and consistently.  For 200 yards, I suggest raising the entire blade right down to the barrel above the rear sight plain and hold centre on the target with the tip of the front sight.  At our rifle range, we have an 18" steel plate hanging at 200 yards, and using this aiming technique, I can tag it almost every time, offhand.
Naturally, you will need to experiment if you choose to try this method, to gain confidence and proficiency, but I suggest you'll like it.
On a .62 cal. Hawken rifle I built, I had to use the reflection of the front sight on the barrel to get the big ball on the target at 200 yards, but always, the front sight is dead centre in the target.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd switch to 3fff for main charge and prime.  Shoot what ever load is most accurate. I would consider 120 grains to be a lot of powder. But I don't hunt out west.  Personally  I wouldn't be shooting at anything beyond 75 yards these days as I can't see iron sights well anymore. Your gun is only as accurate as the sights will allow it to be. You'll have to figure out some soght picture to suit you
 I could never remember the one you're currently settled on.

[schmidty3]

You will do what makes you the most comfortable, but I will offer my sighting/aiming method for the sake of conversation.

I file my sights so that I can aim and hit dead centre at ranges from 25 to 75 yards.  That is I put the tip of the front sight dead level with the notched top of the rear sight and in the centre of the target.  If my target is a thumb tack or a horizontal string, I don't want to guess at where to hold the sights.  This also gives me great results on moving/running shots where offhand is the only option.
For shots at game beyond 75 yards, I always look for a rest if I can find one, but often the offhand shot is all that presents itself.  So for hitting centre with sights filed in this manner, for 100 yards, here's the picture.  On all my rifles, I file a 45 degree bevel on the top rear corner of the silver blade such that when looking at it down the barrel, the bevel is a square.  The eye sees this as a round ball of light.  I simply place the shining ball on top of the level rear sight and on the spot I want to hit.  This gives me perfect elevation for 100 yards, using the load you are currently using.  For 125 yards I simply increase the amount of front sight blade above the rear sight until about half of it is exposed.  This can be done very quickly and consistently.  For 200 yards, I suggest raising the entire blade right down to the barrel above the rear sight plain and hold centre on the target with the tip of the front sight.  At our rifle range, we have an 18" steel plate hanging at 200 yards, and using this aiming technique, I can tag it almost every time, offhand.
Naturally, you will need to experiment if you choose to try this method, to gain confidence and proficiency, but I suggest you'll like it.
On a .62 cal. Hawken rifle I built, I had to use the reflection of the front sight on the barrel to get the big ball on the target at 200 yards, but always, the front sight is dead centre in the target.

Not gonna lie. You lost me a bit talking about balls of light. I think i understand the rest. My issue with holding dead center is that it obfuscates the point im trying to hit. In your thumb tack scenario, youre in a battle of ups and down and wiggling around to try to put that thumb tack on top of the front sight post, and when you think you have it then you cant see the thumbtack, so you lower the sight back, then bring it back up...etc etc.

My target is an elk and only an elk. Im placing the whole elk on top of the front sight post and it will be dead. If the shot gets out there too far then i can raise the sight to the center of the body or top of the back, but in reality ive got no business shooting past 120 yards or so.

[schmidty3]

I'd switch to 3fff for main charge and prime.  Shoot what ever load is most accurate. I would consider 120 grains to be a lot of powder. But I don't hunt out west.  Personally  I wouldn't be shooting at anything beyond 75 yards these days as I can't see iron sights well anymore. Your gun is only as accurate as the sights will allow it to be. You'll have to figure out some soght picture to suit you
 I could never remember the one you're currently settled on.

Why 3f? Poking around it seems like the consensus is 2f is the way to go on bigger calibers.


The beauty is that there is nothing to remember. Put the elk on top of the front sight post and its dead from 0-120ish. Its a calibrated sight picture for a specific target. Obviously that doesnt work as soon as your target changes. Shooting a specific bullseye or even a small doe would be a challenge.

When i would set up my hunting recurve for elk i would find an arrow setup that let me hold the belly line with the arrow point as my *sight*. From 5-30 yards, as long as the arrow point is on the belly when i released the shot i'd have a dead elk. There no conscious thought needed on aiming other then "is it within 30 yards?".

Its essentially a self compensating sight picture that doesnt obscure the target. As the distance increases the angle between the point of aim and point of impact decreases, essentially compensating for trajectory. You also dont necessarily have to be able to see the sights that well. Use them as a form check to make sure you are properly aligned, then place them on the elks belly and worry about breaking the shot.

I dont necessarily need perfection here, the sight picture here is for placing a ball in a 3" wide by 8" tall rectangle every time and every distance.

The gun seems accurate enough. The problem is me and making sure i get a clean ignition. i also need to take about a pound off of the trigger. Its nice and crisp, but squeezing thru it to get the needed surprise break is a task.

[smylee grouch]

Work up your best grouping load, sight the rifle in with that and learn its down range aim points/impacts. 2f MIGHT give you less felt recoil. I shoot 100-110 grs. of 1&1/2 swiss in my 58s because thats what shoots the best in my rifles. YMMV

[Duane Harshaw]

  I use 70grains of 3F and a .562 ball dead on at 75 yards, that is my elk load...D

[Mike Brooks]

  I use 70grains of 3F and a .562 ball dead on at 75 yards, that is my elk load...D

There you go! Simple as it gets. A big part of hunting is how close you can get, not how far you can shoot.

[45-110]

115 gr's swiss 1 1/2 in my .58 Hawken. 100+yd shots frequently the norm here in the Montana broken timber country. My last 2 where from a steady prone position as the wind always blows. Neck shots work!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

With my system, where the front sight is on the target is where the ball goes.  I thought your post was a question, not a lesson.

[martin9]

I also want my sights hitting on target. I wouldn't hunt with something shooting a foot high to the sights. I could see myself hitting limbs I'm not even paying attention to with that set-up. With the sights shooting dead on you can thread the needle if you have to.

[schmidty3]

With my system, where the front sight is on the target is where the ball goes.  I thought your post was a question, not a lesson.

I undertsand your system. The way you wrote it was poorly written. Thats generally how iron sights work. Its fine for small bullseyes.

For me that doesnt work well on indeterminate targets with a solid brown or black hide. I lose my vertical sight alignment
and question where im at due to the barrel covering the body.

[schmidty3]

115 gr's swiss 1 1/2 in my .58 Hawken. 100+yd shots frequently the norm here in the Montana broken timber country. My last 2 where from a steady prone position as the wind always blows. Neck shots work!

Good stuff! Im gonna do my best to catch them in high timber so i dont have to fight the 4 wheeler boys down low. But if i do end up low its quite open, high desert scrub mesas.

[schmidty3]

I also want my sights hitting on target. I wouldn't hunt with something shooting a foot high to the sights. I could see myself hitting limbs I'm not even paying attention to with that set-up. With the sights shooting dead on you can thread the needle if you have to.

fair point.

im definitely not at the point where i'll be threading needles.
Need more time behind it. And more importantly, time making it go bang properly in hunting scenarios.

[Daniel Coats]

I've been elk hunting most of my life in the Rocky mountains of Colorado. Here's what I know don't expect anything, don't try to make anything happen, take advantage of every opportunity you get within your skill set . Period!!!!

[rich pierce]

A gun set up to shoot high at close range is going to cost a hunter game for sure. When a big game animal is jumped and briefly looks back at 60-80 yards, I don’t know who could remember to aim below the elk and also get their sights level. But, you do you, and be clear you don’t want help on how to set up your sights if you’re settled in a system that works for you. In that case I’d have written the original post much better by leaving the sighting part out. 

[JPK]

I wouldn’t consider aiming at an animal, I aim at a spot. Many times you can’t see the whole animal.

[snapper]

Part of people are trying to tell you is that in their opinion they would not be able to instinctively aim at the bottom of the animal when you only have a split second to make a shot or if you have to just shoulder and shooting the rifle with out thinking.

If the bottom of the animal is your point of aim all the time and if you practice it then you do what works for you.   You are more or less using a 6 o'clock hold on the elk.   

I and most others would simply have a point of aim out to 100 or 125 yards if possible within your margin of error for a elk size animal, and if I need to make a farther shot then that I will have practiced my sight picture for those yardages.

Making a quick shot at farther yardages is not a quick thing IMO as if you are off by 25 yards your going to have a greater potential for a bad ball placement and I would use a range finder.

Fleener

[martin9]

The more I think about this the more I think it's a bad idea. consider a 75 yard downhill quartering away shot with the animal also standing steeply downhill.....throw a pine limb level with the bottom of his belly for good measure. Consider that awhile and think if you'd rather be able to just set the sights on him.

[Daniel Coats]

I think that just about every missed shot I've taken at big game either arrow or ball has been overshot.

[Duane Harshaw]

   I agree Daniel...D

[elk killer]

Always just used 80 grains fff also primed with fff, 530 round ball patch lubed with bear grease, when i lived in Idaho, shot placement is everything, never shot one farther out that maybe 80 yards, simple effective no need to reinvent the wheel

[Tim Crosby]

 "Aim Small Miss Small"

[alacran]

I have all my hunting rifles set up like Taylor, center of mass.
 Daniel Coats is dead on, the situation will dictate what you do not the other way around.
Where I hunt elk in AZ, very similar to parts of NM. There is no perfect world. Sometimes you are only seeing parts of an elk.
I have had to pass up less than 40 yards easy shots because I could not see the head gear.
 If you have an elk broadside to you but brush covers most of the lower half, where are you going to aim? I've only killed eight elk with muzzleloaders. Evenly split with cap and flint. Ranges between 20 yards and 95 yards.
My rifles are sighted in to be dead on at 100 yards. That gives me point blank range.  I will be 4 inches high at fifty yards . Don't have to think about where to hold.
Above all I hunt with a rifle like I hunt with a bow.

[Roger B]

I would try to wring the utmost accuracy from my rifle before I went much further.  I like my rifles to shoot one hole or cloverleaf groups at 50 yards which takes time developing loads at the bench. I want to know what a rifle will do before I hunt with it & then aim at distinct point on the kill zone if The Lord blesses me with a shot. That way, if I make a make a less than perfect shot, the accuracy of the rifle may forgive me & keep me within a vital spot. My guess is your barrel isn't burning all of the 120grs you're putting in it. I have noticed several of my rifles not changing their point of impact with very heavy loads while recoling more severely than with more reasonable loads. That tells me that the powder charge is not totally burned. That & accuracy almost goes to pot. Big powder charges do not compensate for a poorly placed shot & they make you flinch, which doesn't help. Besides, elk seldom drop dead no matter what kind of load you use even with the best of shots. That goes double for bison.  In short, I agree with most everyone else.work out an accurate hunting load, then get close & shoot straight. And a range finder is a good idea when the range gets out to an estimated 100yds. You can be fooled at range estimation; at least I have. My 2 cents from my personal experience. 
Roger B.