Original rilfles with brass screws

[Dave B]

Can't remember where i heard this but an old timer said the original builders never used brass screws. I have come to learn that talking in absolute terms was never a good idea. I have seen a couple rifles now that have brass screws in the patchbox  and one with them in the toe plate. What are yoy gu uh s seeing out there?

[Goo]

I have been told the same thing about original screws not being made from brass, I also think there are always exceptions.  Original guns have been around a long time who is to say someone didn't replace a steel screw with a brass one. To be closer to certainty you would have to remove the screw and see if it looked handmade.   

[Dennis Glazener]

Can't remember where i heard this but an old timer said the original builders never used brass screws. I have come to learn that talking in absolute terms was never a good idea. I have seen a couple rifles now that have brass screws in the patchbox  and one with them in the toe plate. What are yoy gu uh s seeing out there?

As best I can remember I have never seen brass screws on an original except where they were obviously replaced sometime after the rifle was built.
Dennis

[Eric Kettenburg]

There is an signed (I believe it's signed, now hard to remember) rifle by John Newcomer and as best I can recall, I believe it uses small brass screws to retain side pieces of the box as well as brass keys to retain the barrel.  I remember it creating quite the stir when it popped up at a KRA show maybe 15+ years ago.  It was also the piece which was responsible for "re-attributing" the so-called 'Bullard rifle' to Newcomer.  Hopefully I'm remembering it correctly - it's been a long time and I don't recall seeing any published photos as yet.  Box had a unique flared lid also, I believe.

[Marcruger]

I was taught that 18th century brass buckles had iron tongues because brass was relatively more expensive. 

If that is the case, why would a gunmaker create brass screws that would (in theory) be weaker and more expensive. 

Just the thought that popped up.

God Bless,    Marc

[heinz]

in the 18th century almost all screws were handmade using forged rod and screw plates.  Almost all brass was calamine brass which contained a high proportion of slag.  The slag in calamine brass makes it difficult to draw out in small diameter rods.  The process of forming and drawing down a rod to a suitable screw diameter and upsetting the rod to form the screw head was easier and less likely to have a slag flaw with wrought iron than with calamine brass. 

[bob in the woods]

Original, perhaps, but still the exception.

[T*O*F]

in the 18th century almost all screws were handmade using forged rod and screw plates.  Almost all brass was calamine brass which contained a high proportion of slag.

What about the 19th century.  It's when most originals were made and they certainly had their brass formula down by that time.

[Frozen Run]

I've talked to a number of contemporary builders and the one thing that is ubiquitous about them is that sneaky little smile they give when you discover or they point out some clever little trick they did. I have no reason to believe that spirit didn't exist with builders 2 or 3 hundred years ago. It may be wishful thinking, but I could imagine some builder back then figuring it out and showing off his novelty to someone with that same sneaky little smile on his face.     

[JTR]

I'll go along with the never say never, but I've never seen an original with original brass screws.

[Bob Roller]

I have been told the same thing about original screws not being made from brass, I also think there are always exceptions.  Original guns have been around a long time who is to say someone didn't replace a steel screw with a brass one. To be closer to certainty you would have to remove the screw and see if it looked handmade.

I just noticed the comment on science.It IS a conspiracy against ignorance,stupidity and superstitions of all kinds plus pain from every source.
Bob  Roller

[Bob Roller]

I'll go along with the never say never, but I've never seen an original with original brass screws.

To me it has NEVER been an issue and none of the few guns I made ever used them.
Bob Roller

[louieparker]

I know of a raised carved Va, rifle that had brass screws. It sold at the KRA show. I saw it a few years later and the screws had been changed. I ask the owner why the screws were changed, He said, I thought they were wrong, so I had them changed. I found out they were right, and I am now trying to find the brass screws.
 
I own a rifle with brass screws. They are in the butt plate, toe plate and patch box and a few other places.
They did use them in later years. Yes, they are correct, though rare     .... Louie

[shortbarrel]

Bought a rifle many years ago at a gun show. It was a old rifle. thought we would rebuild  it. When cleaning it up we found out that it had small brass triangles driven into the whole stock. Rebuilt the lock, set trigger and but plate  and and made a new stock Hard to say if the little triangles are original to the gun. This rifle is in our collection with both stocks

[kutter]

If they could make a screw out of a bit of iron,,why is it that they could not/did not (ever) make a screw out of a bit of brass??

[Goo]

I have been told the same thing about original screws not being made from brass, I also think there are always exceptions.  Original guns have been around a long time who is to say someone didn't replace a steel screw with a brass one. To be closer to certainty you would have to remove the screw and see if it looked handmade.

I just noticed the comment on science.It IS a conspiracy against ignorance,stupidity and superstitions of all kinds plus pain from every source.
Bob  Roller

    I am grateful for something that is based on fact and is willing to change when facts are disproven.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

In my opinion the use of brass wood screws became more commonplace only when technology developed to produce screws where the threads were cut or machined rather than swaged.  See the topic under tutorials for metal, Making 18th c. Wood Screws, this shows the swage process.  Since brass work hardens so very easily, this swage process was quite difficult in brass.  A machine to cut the wood screw threads rather than swage them was patented in 1836, corresponding neatly to the percussion era, not the flintlock era.  in my opinion, a flintlock era gun with brass wood screws would be quite unusual, while a percussion gun with brass wood screws would be more common.

Jim

[Bob Roller]

Anyone who says that one thing or another never happened or that so and so never made whatever is being discussed is making a VERY ambiguous statement.We had a gun collector here that had a fine collection of Colt revolvers and if someone said "Colt never made this" or whatever he would frequently produce the gun and factory documentation to back it up.NOBODY cab say for sure that there were no brass screws in old long rifles or anything else.
Bob Roller

[Dave B]

Thanks guys, I have more information now and wont be so quick to jump to a conclusion on this issue.

[duca]

Not that I’m an expert on this BUT I would think maybe the Brass screw was more likely to break.

Anthony

[Eric Kettenburg]

Not that I’m an expert on this BUT I would think maybe the Brass screw was more likely to break.

Anthony

Yes, also more prone to the slot being damaged faster if a screw that was frequently... well, screwed.